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What do communists think of certain events in history?

Wondering if anyone here would consider themselves a communist on here. If so, what do you think of things like the Holodomor, The Great leap forward, Soviet annexations of Eastern Europe? How do you have hope for communism after these things? I find it hard to understand having grown up in a poor formerly soviet state with my childhood home being an infamous apartment block building (a khrushchevka) which are all built poorly with low ceilings and thin walls to the point where you could hear your neighbours.


Looking forward to hearing new perspectives 


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Reply by EngiQu33ring

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I try not to identify myself too strongly with any particular left-leaning label, but I do fall into the "pretty far left" category so I'll do my best to answer.

While there are political parties that call themselves "the communist party," communism itself is an economic framework that can be implemented in many ways, some of them good and some of them unthinkably horrific. Two people can hear the phrase, "workers are entitled to what they produce," and come to completely different meanings.

One person may hear that and think, "we should enact laws and policies that shift ownership of companies from shareholders into the hands of their workers."

Another person might hear that and think, "the factory owners and groups of people I associate with being bad should be punished."

Like with all political and economic frameworks, the conclusion people come to when hearing new ideas is informed by their biases and existing view of the world. Authoritarians, as it turns out, are very good at creating narratives that combine widely popular sentiments like "the powerful should stop oppressing the masses" with widespread social prejudices to gain power where they then proceed to do terrible things. This isn't unique to communism either, we see this pattern with all forms of political and economic ideologies all throughout history.

There are a number of ideas in communist/leftist economic theory that are worth considering, such as the idea that the profits from production should go to the people who did the worth rather than shareholders, or that if the government is going to collect taxes then they have a responsibility to provide a baseline of wellbeing for everyone such as shelter, food, and medical care. I'm not advocating for completely removing the context around and the results produced by an ideology, but I do think that if we want to make the world a better place to live in we have to be willing to put aside the difficult baggage certain ideas come with and examine them for what they are in good faith.

As for the shitty apartment, I lived in a shitty apartment where we could hear our neighbor having conversations on the phone pretty regularly. Poorly-built apartments seem to be a pretty universal constant across all political and economic ideologies.


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Reply by EngiQu33ring

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@slamdangles


OP asked for people with different perspectives to explain their beliefs, not for people they already agree with to go on a rant. If you want to start a fight, go make your own thread instead of derailing someone else’s. Every time a leftist speaks isn’t an invitation for you to attempt to start a debate.


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Reply by EngiQu33ring

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Asking you not to derail a thread isn't gatekeeping, nor is it having a nasty attitude. You weren't agreeing with me, you were divorcing my words from their meaning so you could call leftists authoritarians.

Aside from all of that, this is a small site, regulars recognize each other. A lot of your comments on here are inflammatory, sometimes outright hostile. Don't clutch your pearls and act surprised that people don't want to interact with you or give what you have to say the benefit of the doubt when you constantly antagonize others.


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Reply by EngiQu33ring

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Damn, my secret plot to enforce communist authoritarianism on this obscure blogging platform by asking someone not to derail what could have been an interesting topic with their ranting has been foiled. How will the left ever recover


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Reply by EngiQu33ring

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If I didn’t know any better, I’d say it sounds like you’re telling me what to do


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Reply by Sánchez

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I am not a communist, but I am fairly acquainted with their framework, so...
   Communism is primarily an economic system, not a political or even social one. Everything else around it is frills that can and is adjusted to the culture. First, you must define what it is, which I would regard as pure socialism: (I will use the most basic definition) Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. As all other capitalistic or free-commerce oriented nations, there are massive differences in policy, geography, culture, geopolitical background, and history which will affect its results. Any decent historian knows that assigning a domino effect with assurance will never be quite right.

   Anyways... The Holodomor was a massive, year-long famine during the USSR under Josef Stalin that killed millions of Ukrainians. I will say it again, the key note is under Stalin. Saying that an entire government that began by revolution in an extremely impoverished, violent country predisposed to authoritarian tendencies was the exact same in every single era of its nearly seven-decade reign would be ridiculous. Under Gorbachev, it hardly even resembled socialism anymore, until he freed the markets to the point it collapsed. If someone really does want to know the cause of the Holodomor, they would read historians' accounts. It is theorized as being a result of Stalin's prejudice, of natural causes, of isolated policies, and so on. The answer is, like any situation, complex, multifaceted, and not able to be boxed into a simple answer. But I wager most communists would say it is a result of Stalin's individual policies, and the authoritarian culture imbued in volatile Russia since the beginning. 
   Regarding "The Great Leap Forward", it isn't necessarily a communist thing. China, like Russia, was also in an impoverished state and evidently, fertile enough for ideology to take root. It would be too long, and wasted on readers, to provide paragraphs of Chinese history, but essentially it has always been a meritocratic civilization. The CCP even disowned Mao after seeing his effects and the lives lost, and he merely came back because he initiated another cultural reovlution. As for the Soviet annexation of Eastern Europe... Jesus Christ, that's not even Communism, that's just Eurasian nut racism that was already there and to this day, continues in Russia. 
    There simply isn't a connection, and trying to play cat-and-mouse with complicated historical situations is merely a game. Communism isn't responsible for every thing that happens in their government, the same way that provinces of developed states make their own policies. Why did krushchevkas look that way and were built that way? I have no idea, there are infinitesimal explanations, some or none of which have to do with Communism/Socialism as an ideology. Personally, I find that housing is better than no housing, even if the engineers were undereducated. Not everything that occurs under a government is actually due to the government, and seeing things through that lens is narrow. "If communism good, why apartment thin?". Putting an insanely high bar for socialism to be perfect is already forgiving subpar and even viciously exploitative capitalism. Any genuine curiosity is wiped out by pre-existing biases, whether acquired consciously or not. 
    I'm by no means a fan of a "ideological salvation to utopia", but thinking that we have reached our ne plus ultra is not only cruel, but pessimistic as to what humans can achieve. Analyzing a vastly different system through the lens of two centuries of capitalistic culture is never going to be an accurate control group. There are many good things that have occured under strictly Marxist-Leninist one-party states, but also many bad. However, the same can be said about any other form of government. The question is, which one is less bad when allowed to run without an unholy amount of opposition via blockades, sanctions, and relentless propaganda and misinformation? The world has not been so equal to all visions. 


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Reply by Sánchez

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Probably because they have things to do.


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Reply by JillTheSomething

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@Slamdangles

So we can either accept an entire system and all its implementations or not accept it at all?

Why can't we have nuance?


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