I recommend watching a video by SFO (ShortFatOtaku) on YouTube who discusses this concept more in depth.
« News and Politics Forum
Fascism is Honest Socialism
40 Replies

Reply by Macky
posted
"The short and sweet of it is that fascists and socialists have a similar
goal of using centralized force in an attempt to benefit a certain
group in society."
There is Libertarian Socialism, and more decentralized ways of organizing society like council communism/syndicalism. Fascism has no decentralized theory and it is inherently authoritarian.
There were smaller revolutions that fell due to other authoritarian/fascist government that used force to stop the revolutions. One of the most prominent Libertarian Socialist revolutions was in Revolutionary Catalonia, and it lasted for around 2 years. Even George Orwell visited Catalonia in that time period and was amazed on how everything was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzC937Q9Dc
Reply by Macky
posted
"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced
by someone else, as though means of production are limited."
Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.
Reply by Tuesday
posted
Reply by Tuesday
posted
Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.
Reply by Emmynette
posted
"They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with the chair."
Reply by Emmynette
posted
Reply by Tuesday
posted
In response to your first comment, consider what I said directly before I said "They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with a chair."
This is why people who build a chair in the privacy of their own home get to do what they please with it.
As I stated in the last paragraph of my first reply,
Reply by Tuesday
posted
updated
The workplace doesn't need to be organized from forces that do not participate in it.
Marxism is inherently materialist. Liberalism is not. The Marxist state has goals and enforces from the top down (consider how you said socialism is about organizing the workplace, as if the government needs to organize things that are already organized in their own way). The Liberal state is called the Night Watchman state, only appearing when injustice does. Nobody but the Marxists believe that a worker creating a chair and selling it to his employer in return for a wage is injustice.
It should be noted that fascism and socialism are incredibly alike, in the sense that both the socialists and fascists believe in redistribution of those who go against the state's agenda (the socialists and Communists may want state-mandated worker co-ops, the Fascists may want state-mandated propaganda outlets).
This is why Fascist nations often appropriated land from those who went against the government, nationalized it, then handed it over to those who were willing to bend over to the government's demands.
Typically, I think socialists are simply fascists who don't understand the long-term consequences of their beliefs. Consider just how many times Hitler wrote about how he would whip the bourgeoise into obeying what the government told them to do. In the same manner that the fascists appropriate land, nationalize it, and find a designated state actor to take care of it, the socialists have no problem using the state to kick out the boss and replace him with either a collective or a "nicer", state-approved boss.
I recommend ShortFatOtaku's "Fascism is Honest Socialism" on YouTube. If you do watch it, let me know. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts afterwards.
In conclusion,
Reply by Dominic
posted
Reply by Smxth
posted
Reply by Peter Coffin
posted
No, it isn't. Fascism is capitalism in crisis. Read R. Palme Dutt's scientific investigation into the subject, Fascism and Social Revolution.
Reply by Helios (he)
posted
Reply by Vigilante Stylez
posted
Reply by ♡ Aniela ♡
posted
well, thats probably because they both started out as factory-workers-ish. Yes, the line between them might be vague sometimes, but the huge difference is probably the way they want to achieve stuff. Socialism was made to be achieved in legal ways, the revolutions should be peaceful. But fascism is a more cruel way of it. Limiting certain groups rights, extreme nationalism etc.
Reply by axie
posted
Reply by Nukeblast84
posted
Although I can see why some people would believe the horseshoe theory, its quite easy to see that even if some of the infamous founders were anti-capitalist (Anton Drexler and Benito Mussolini) they both advocated for Corporatists economics, especially the NSDAP with its "Socialism" coming from Prussian Socialism which is also corporatist economics. Now, its really anyone's interpretation to classify anything involving Fascism or "Third Position" economics as anything socialist as most of the time, its just interventionists and social solidarity among classes. Of course, Socialist and Marxist views on such a topic is that its to deceive the proletariat and that its naturally capitalists instead of being "Anti-Capital" like its usually espoused to be.
Reply by Gorbi
posted
Capitalist countries don't interfere with fascist countries, hell they even help them! Plenty of companies were still trading with Hitler even during the War. Some companies were paid reparations by the US since their Nazi factories were bombed. Capitalist countries only interfered with fascists of the 1930s cause their imperialism was starting to conflict with their own imperialism.
Reply by Tuesday
posted
It is worth nothing that the "Corporation" as defined by the Fascist is not the same as the "Corporation" as defined by the Capitalist.
A lot of people have given smoothbrain replies. Some have given replies worth responding to. If anyone would like an extended conversation on the subject, feel free to add and message me!
Reply by tumzam8
posted
Reply by boshi
posted
"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced by someone else"
You've got it all backwards. Who creates the means of production? The elite? Under capitalism the capitalist owns the factory that was constructed by workers.
Reply by Tuesday
posted
A worker who builds a chair is not entitled to the labor of others simply because they live in the same community. Is this an objectionable axiom?
Reply by Rigamortis
posted
updated
Read "The Coming Corporate State" , "Doctrine of Fascism", "We Marched With Mosley", "BUF Oswald Mosley and British Fascism"
This will give you a good fundemental understanding on Fascism and what it sought to achieve at the time.
To add if you want to discuss this topic Further get in touch.
Reply by ᛉΝικόλαςᛣ
posted
Reply by jamie
posted
Capitalism inevitably creates a class of collaborating imperialists, those who purport the idea of "free competition" and "freedom" in general. The fact is, under capitalism people are not principally people. They exist primarily in their position in the class struggle. I recommend you pick up a book like State & Revolution by Vladimir Lenin or Principles of Communism by Friedrich Engels, rather than YouTube video essays by "ShortFatOtaku"s
Reply by Tuesday
posted
You are aware that a video essay often has the same value as a treatise from a century ago? They serve the exact same purpose. It's fallacious to say one is more valuable than the other simply because one is on paper and the other is digital.
I've read some literature (although not everything listed) and often disagree with it. I understand the opposition more, but that doesn't mean I agree.
Reply by sam_nella
posted
Reply by Alex_Sakh
posted
Basically Fascism and National-socialism are non-Marxist varieties of socialism . and if you compare the political practices of the USSR and Nazi Germany, it turns out that they are very close on the political spectrum. Both ideologies were based on the cult of the leader, the nationalization of private property (in other words, Hitler and Stalin seized industry into their own hands and used it to militarize the state). Sorry for my english , im from Russia and
i dont speak it well.
Reply by Nurses Whispering Verses
posted
Benito Mussolini:
"It was inevitable that I should become a Socialist ultra, a Blanquist, indeed a communist. I carried about a medallion with Marx’s head on it in my pocket. . . [Marx] had a profound critical intelligence and was in some sense even a prophet." - 1932 interview
"The law of socialism is that of the desert: a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. Socialism is a rude and bitter truth, which was born in the conflict of opposing forces and in violence. Socialism is war, and woe to those who are cowardly in war. They will be defeated." - Il Duce p. 56
“Marx was the greatest of all theorists of socialism" - Opera Omnia di Benito Mussolini
“You cannot get rid of me because I am and always will be a socialist. You hate me because you still love me... Do not believe, even for a moment, that by stripping me of my membership card you do the same to my Socialist beliefs, nor that you would restrain me of continuing to work in favor of Socialism and of the Revolution." - after being expelled from the Italian Socialist Party in 1914
"During my whole life I was an internationalist socialist. When the Great War broke out I saw that all our parties that were internationalists became nationalist socialists, that happened to me and that is fascism." - Cesar Vedal, interview of Mussolini by a foreign journalist
During hostile exchanges with opposing socialist factions, he would retort that if anyone depicted him and his comrades as “conservatives or reactionaries,” they were “downright imbeciles.” (Opera Omnia di Benito Mussolini, p. 309)
"Fascism establishes the real equality of individuals before the nation. . . the object of the regime in the economic field is to ensure higher social justice for the whole of the Italian people. . . What does social justice mean? It means work guaranteed, fair wages, decent homes, it means the possibility of continuous evolution and improvement. Nor is this enough. It means that the workers must enter more and more intimately into the productive process and share its necessary discipline. . . As the past century was the century of capitalist power, the twentieth century is the century of power and glory of labour." - Four Speeches On The Corporate State, pages 39 to 40.
On page 38 of "Four Speeches on The Corporate State", Mussolini states fascism economics are "“based not on individual profit but on collective interest.”
"The Fascist conception of life accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with the State. . . Fascism reasserts the rights of the state. If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government.... [fascism] is opposed to classical Liberalism. . . Liberalism denied the State in the interests of the particular individual; Fascism reaffirms the State as the true reality of the individual." - 1935 translation of the Doctrine of Fascism
"We go to battle against the plutocratic and reactionary democracies of the West... this gigantic struggle is nothing other than a phase in the logical development of our revolution; it is the struggle of peoples that are poor but rich in workers against the exploiters..." - June 10 1940 Declaration of War against England
"Some still ask of us: what do you want? We answer with three words that summon up our entire program. Here they are. . . Italy, Republic, Socialization. . . Socialization is no other than the implantation of Italian Socialism. . ." - October 14, 1944 speech to resega officers
In his autobiography, Mussolini boasted of his social welfare accomplishments, writing that “Italy is advanced beyond all other European nations.” He listed, among others, the eight-hour workday, old age pension, assistance and benefits, adult education, and efforts to enact minimum wage laws. (P. 277)
"To-day we affirm that the capitalistic method of production is out of date. So is the doctrine of laissez-faire, the theoretical basis of capitalism. . . To-day we are taking a new and decisive step in the path of revolution. A revolution, in order to be great, must be a social revolution." - November 1933 speech on corporatism
“Italy is not a capitalist country according to the meaning now conventionally assigned to that term.” - Same speech above.
"For this I have been and am a socialist. The accusation of inconsistency has no foundation. My conduct has always been straight in the sense of looking at the substance of things and not to the form. I adapted socialisticamente to reality. As the evolution of society belied many of the prophecies of Marx, the true socialism folded from possible to probable. The only feasible socialism socialisticamente is corporatism, confluence, balance and justice interests compared to the collective interest." - 1945 Interview with Ivanoe Fossani
Lenin on Mussolini: “Mussolini? A great pity he is lost to us! He is a strong man, who would have led our party to victory.” (Life of Benito Mussolini, p. 278)
Trotsky on Mussolini being ousted from the Italian socialist party: "Why have you allowed Mussolini to leave your ranks?" (Sarfatti, "Mussolini as I Knew Him", p. 41)
Adolf Hitler:
"Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income." - his "Why We Are Anti-Semites" Speech
Confessions to economic advisor Otto Wagener, see his book "Hitler- Memoirs of a Confidant":
"After all, that’s exactly why we call ourselves National Socialists! We want to start by implementing socialism in our nation among our Volk! It is not until the individual nations are socialist that they can address themselves to international socialism."
"Aren’t these liberals, those reprobate defenders of individualism, ashamed to see the tears of the mothers and wives, or don’t these cold-blooded accountants even notice? Have they already grown so inhuman that they are no longer capable of feeling? It is understandable why bolshevism simply removed such creatures. They were worthless to humanity, nothing but an encumbrance to their Volk. Even the bees get rid of the drones when they can no longer be of service to the hive. The Bolshevik procedures are thus quite natural."
From a conversation with Hermann Raschung:
"The party is all-embracing. . . Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. . . This is Socialism—not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over all, regardless of whether they are owners or workers. . . Our Socialism goes far deeper. . . [the people] have entered a new relation. . . What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings."
"I have learned a great deal from Marxism as I do not hesitate to admit. . . The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun. The whole of National Socialism is based on it. . . National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order."
Hitler was mentored by Gottfried Feder. Feder also collaborated with him on the staunchly anti-capitalist 25 planks of national socialism. According to historian Konrad Heiden, "Gottfried Feder gave the Nazi Party an ideology. Its essential points were paramount State ownership of land and the prohibition of private sales of land, the substitution of German for Roman law, nationalization of the banks and the abolition of interest by an amortization service. It was he, too, who inspired the Party with its doctrine of the distinction between productive and non-productive capital and of the necessity for destroying the “slavery of profits.”"
“The bourgeoisie rules by intrigue, but it can have no foothold in my movement because we accept no Jews or Jewish accomplices into our Party. Today’s bourgeoisie is rotten to the core; it has no ideals any more; all it wants to do is earn money and so it does me what damage it can. The bourgeois press does me damage too and would like to consign me and my movement to the devil." - 1931 confidential interview
"I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism." - Lecture to Otto Strasser
"Capitalism as a whole will now be destroyed. . . We are not fighting Jewish or Christian capitalism, we are fighting very capitalism: we are making the people completely free." - Munich April 12, 1922 speech
Joseph Goebbels:
“I think it is terrible that we [the Nazis] and the Communists are bashing in each other’s heads. . . Where can we get together sometime with the leading Communists?” - January 31, 1926 diary entry
"We are against the political bourgeoisie, and for genuine nationalism! We are against Marxism, but for true socialism! We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature! We are for the National Socialist German Workers’ Party!"
"The worker in a capitalist state—and that is his deepest misfortune—is no longer a living human being, a creator, a maker. He has become a machine. A number, a cog in the machine without sense or understanding. He is alienated from what he produces- Both from "Those Damned Nazis" propaganda pamphlet
“England is a capitalist democracy. Germany is a socialist people’s state...” "It is also why English capitalists want to destroy Hitlerism. They see Hitlerism as all the generous social reforms that have occurred in Germany since 1933. The English plutocrats rightly fear that good things are contagious, that they could endanger English capitalism." - "England's Guilt" speech, fall of 1939
“You and I, we are fighting each other but we are not really enemies. . . Maybe the final extremity will bring us together. Maybe.” - “My Friends of the Left" open letter, addressed to communists
Thread over.
Reply by gurzil
posted
I recognize these systems differ in key ways, especially in their goals and approaches to society and economy, they all sound good on paper but one's people starved while the others were enjoying their good striving economy and national pride they were offered, and im talking abt specific forms of these ideologies
Reply by Solus
posted
No fascist state ever destroyed private property + they collaborated with the bourgoise and sometimes even america.
Reply by Jason
posted
Hitler also redefined socialism as something particularly racist and nationalist and then claimed Marx stole the idea. He basically did a no-true-scotsman with the term. I noticed you didn't mention that. I'm going to bet that the sources from which you got that old chestnut of a quote list aren't too keen on discussing it either.
“‘When I take charge of Germany, I shall end tribute abroad and Bolshevism at home.’
Adolf Hitler drained his cup as if it contained not tea but the lifeblood of Bolshevism.
‘Bolshevism’, the chief of the Brown Shirts, the Fascists of Germany continued, ‘is our greatest menace. Kill Bolshevism in Germany and you restore 70 million people to power. France owes her strength not to her armies but to the forces of Bolshevism and dissension in our midst’…
I met Hitler not in his headquarters, the Brown House in Munich, but in a private home, the dwelling of a former admiral of the German Navy. We discussed the fate of Germany over the teacups.
‘Why’, I asked Hitler, ‘do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party program is the very anthesis of that commonly accredited to Socialism?’
‘Socialism’, he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, ‘is the science of dealing with the common weal [health or well-being]. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.
‘Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality and, unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.
‘We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our Socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the State on the basis of race solidarity. To us, State and race are one…
‘What’, I continued my cross-examination, ‘are the fundamental planks of your platform?’
‘We believe in a healthy mind, in a healthy body. The body politic must be sound if the soul is to be healthy. Moral and physical health are synonymous.’
‘Mussolini’, I interjected, ‘said the same to me’. Hitler beamed.
‘The slums’, he added, ‘are responsible for nine-tenths, alcohol for one-tenth of all human depravity. No healthy man is a Marxian. Healthy men recognise the value of personality. We contend against the forces of disaster and degeneration. Bavaria is comparatively healthy because it is not completely industrialised… If we wish to save Germany, we must see to it that our farmers remain faithful to the land. To do so, they must have room to breathe and room to work.’
‘Where will you find the room to work?’
‘We must retain our colonies and expand eastward. There was a time when we could have shared world domination with England. Now we must stretch our cramped limbs only toward the east. The Baltic is necessarily a German lake.'”
https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/hitler-nazi-form-of-socialism-1932/
The Nazi's also spent a good deal of time in the mid-1930s privatizing government functions. You're basically falling for all the same rhetoric that German workers did in the late 20s and early 30s without looking at what the Nazis actually did. Do you also believe that North Korea is a democracy because the country is formally called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? I mean, they used the word. It has to be true!
I didn't bother getting into Mussolini because I think it is pretty clear what you are falling for here.
Reply by RedKamel
posted
Reply by THC
posted
Why the fuck are you dick-riding CEOs who objectively view your life as just a number on a sheet to make more numbers on a sheet get bigger.
Reply by Ray
posted
Fascist states had to keep capitalism in some shape or form because their economy would be destroyed with pure socialism, lol. Without privatization no one would produce, and the government would steal from everyone.
Capitalism is not "a class of collaborating imperialists who exist to enslave you". Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production, prices and goods are privatized, and where the only role of government is to protect the individual rights of citizens. Not by being involved through cronyism (lobbyism) nor creating hundreds of different useless agencies. In a free market with no government intervention, anyone can produce and distribute these goods.
This also separates labor from slavery. Why? Because this economic system respects the consent and free will of others. You trade as equals by mutual consent to mutual advantage. You agree to labor yourself for the business of YOUR choosing and you sign the contract at your own will. Where's the imperialism, again?
Unlike socialism (or other any economic system, for that matter), where it demands you to give up your mind and utilize your body for the greater good of your "class"--not for your own personhood.
"The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in 'society as a whole,' i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government." -The Virtue of Selfishness.
The motives of socialism and fascism are alike: abolishing poverty (Nazis blamed the Jews, Marxists blamed the producers), the achieving of an undefined, undirected sense of general prosperity (and definitely not that of one's own), and brotherhood (this brotherhood-ness is unearned and arbitrarily decided. The less you have, whether it be racially-related or wealth, the more you deserve it.)
Also, to last thread reply, you're going to mean nothing to CEOs because you haven't earned it, lol. A country ran on the self-made man is better than any country that decides your value based on divine right, racial right, class right, etc.
And if your worth is based on the producers' evaluation of you, then you have ways to go.
Reply by Bill Hooper
posted
Socialism is an economic engine
Fascism is a system of governance
You can have a socialist economy under every form of government, from totalitarianism to pure democracy.
Fascism can exist overseeing free markets and socialist systems.
Poli/sci courses are generally available online at reasonable costs.
Reply by Dorothea Reich
posted
You... you have a point man, really you do... it makes sense... maybe we all just want a better society, maybe this is why people always mistakes socialists and fascists!
Reply by Dorothea Reich
posted
You... you have a point man, really you do... it makes sense... maybe we all just want a better society, maybe this is why people always mistakes socialists and fascists!
Reply by Seftor
posted
Just because two forms of government share centralisation, does NOT mean that they are in any way similar. Socialism talks about allocating financial power to the "Soviets" or worker's collectives while enforcing a socially progressive system. That is why it is generally accused for implementing blanket equality. Fascism on the other hand enforces a corporatist system, a mixture of private and public industries, essencially employing the market to serve national interests while enforcing strong social conservatism, excluding those who do not abide by it. Yes, Mussolini was inspired by socialist revolutionary thinking, but twisted it to fit within nationalism, thus birthing the 3rd position. In conclusion, just because both societies have a cult of personality and wish to overthrow the old order, their goals are incompatible with eachother. Both seek to overthrow the "corrupt liberal order" but the former because it believes it cannot bring forth the necessary socio-economic change without revolution (see the Bolshevik-Menshevik split) and the latter because they feel that it has gone to far and a reactionary policy is the way forward. Totalitarianism is not common enough grounds to make them one, in the same way not all libertarian or anarchist ideologies are synonymous. Every ideology provides a mixture of social, political and economic critique of society and Fascism, Communism share the political model, but differ on the rest. Not to even mention that ideally Communism is not actually an ideology but rather the interpretation of socialist theory, thus leading to a stateless, classless and moneyless society.
Reply by k4ti3z_c0nc1ous(ᵔᴥᵔ)✿
posted
Reply by IntelIdiot
posted
Circular theory - Far enough left you go right etc etc. At the end of the day, all political constructs are based off of control. No matter what, Fascist or communist the poor suffer while the ones at the top glean the rewards. The only true way to live free and prosperously is to return to clan based tribal living. The Industrial Revolution had immense consequences for the human race. Both Fascism and Communism are very clear indications of that.