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Fascism is Honest Socialism

Posted by Tuesday

posted

Forum: News and Politics

I recommend watching a video by SFO (ShortFatOtaku) on YouTube who discusses this concept more in depth.

The short and sweet of it is that fascists and socialists have a similar goal of using centralized force in an attempt to benefit a certain group in society. 

In both ideologies (unlike in liberal societies), the individual citizen is told not to prioritize themselves but the larger collective. The individuals' freedoms and desires are only preserved if the coincide with the desires of the government or larger collective. 

In Hitler's writings, he discusses how the bourgeoisie will listen to his demands, that they will do what they are told or suffer. Socialism is similar in these demands, expecting that the businesses owners of their societies must always obey their government.

Both of these ideologies are opposed to the liberal 'night watchman' state that is common under capitalism. The government of capitalist countries only interferes when it believes a right is being violated. Otherwise, it stays out of the equation. Compare this to the fascist/socialist states, where the business owner's desires are no longer listened to if the business owner dares to go against the interest of the state or 'voice of the people.'

The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced by someone else, as though means of production are limited. The fascist believes the same, but is also aware that businesses and people work better when they choose or enjoy what they are doing.

Thus, the socialist and fascism are one in the same: demanding of those they deem the out-group in a pursuit to benefit its in-group. 


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Reply by Macky

posted

"The short and sweet of it is that fascists and socialists have a similar
goal of using centralized force in an attempt to benefit a certain
group in society."

There is Libertarian Socialism, and more decentralized ways of organizing society like council communism/syndicalism. Fascism has no decentralized theory and it is inherently authoritarian.

There were smaller revolutions that fell due to other authoritarian/fascist government that used force to stop the revolutions. One of the most prominent Libertarian Socialist revolutions was in Revolutionary Catalonia, and it lasted for around 2 years. Even George Orwell visited Catalonia in that time period and was amazed on how everything was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzC937Q9Dc


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Reply by Macky

posted

"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced
by someone else, as though means of production are limited."

Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.


A CEO doesn't create any value inherently. They have invested money into the business, but they did not produce the end product. The workers are the one that created the commodity, therefore should own the fruits of their labor.


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Reply by Tuesday

posted

There is Libertarian Socialism, and more decentralized ways of organizing society like council communism/syndicalism. Fascism has no decentralized theory and it is inherently authoritarian.

A capitalist society, being a liberal society, usually follows the statement, "Create and sell what you wish, as long as you do not infringe on anyone's rights or person" (don't quote me on that, I just came up with that now; there's probably an actual quote that I'm looking for, but just don't have on my mind at the moment). The liberal society is typically referred to as a night watchman state: existing only to protect individuals from individual injustice.

Socialism means that the government has a desire outside of simply preserving rights. Socialism inherently has a view on how society should be, similar to what the fascists believe. The fascists and the socialists (and the communists, though I think it dangerous to always lump the two together) believe in social engineering, where the government attempts to shift the social demographics towards a more "fair" (or in the fascist case, "productive") society ("there are too many rich people!" as if it were a sin to be wealthy whilst others were not). 

Liberal values and Marxist ideas don't exactly mesh very well. While the short lived revolution in Catalonia may have been a step towards Libertarian Socialism, a post-revolution state would soon discover that the ideas of freedom of choice and social engineering are unable to coexist.

You might like The Road to Wigan Pier by Orwell. It doesn't relate too much to what was discussed here, but it seems like a read that would interest you.


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Reply by Tuesday

posted

Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.

A CEO doesn't create any value inherently. They have invested money into the business, but they did not produce the end product. 

Most CEOs don't stop working once their money machine is built. Expansion and innovation are both important parts of business. Most CEOs are responsible for their company - this is why CEO is also considered a position, and is not interchangeable with 'founder'. CEOs step down, and new CEOs step up. 

CEOs do create value. By creating a company that, as its own entity, creates and sells products (thus generating wealth), value was created because of the CEO's actions. 

The workers are the one that created the commodity, therefore should own the fruits of their labor.

The workers do own the fruits of their labor. This is why people who build a chair in the privacy of their own home get to do what they please with it. They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with the chair.

An employee, however, is a worker who chooses to sell the fruits of their labor to their employer, who is then able to sell that for even more, because the employer set up a business.

The socialist believes it immoral for an employer to sell the labor of another, even if done in a consensual and legally binding manner. The socialist does not believe that creating a means of selling something for higher profit is a service, even though it is.

It's easy to conceptualize this with brands. If each individual employee was referred to as though they were a subsidiary brand of the main brand of their employer, people would understand the morality of it easier. For example, the John Smith brand is a subsidiary of the Chair Company. The John Smith brand could have its own outlet (or John Smith, the individual sell the chairs in front of his house), but it would be better off in the market if consumers saw that the chair was in the Chair Company store, a reputable store where people know they can purchase quality chairs. 


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Reply by Emmynette

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"They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with the chair."


But they made the chair for a company who owns the product they make, they don't get to take that chair home, they have to go somewhere else and buy a chair for more money than it cost to make the chair in the first place, then they can do whatever with said chair they spent money on.


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Reply by Emmynette

posted

"Socialism means that the government has a desire outside of simply preserving rights."

Socialism is first and foremost about organizing the workplace, the government can either support it, or try to oppose it and support the business owners. Socialism, if enacted, would push to have a government who wouldn't try to dismantle it, by having democratically elected socialist/communist/anarchist officials in government who would protect the workers' rights to control their workplace. What does the government desire under socialism outside of preserving rights?
What liberal values don't go well with Marxism? How does "freedom of choice" look like now, with a competitive labor market where work isn't guaranteed, where people leaving college in debt are can't find jobs for degrees they paid for, where the only choice is go for the most paying job, even if it isn't the one you want, because the field you wanna go into doesn't pay enough to live on for one person, let alone a family. You think the freedom of choice would be worse with free college, guaranteed work, or a social safety net if you cant, and every single job paying a living wage? There's social engineering now with government subsidies, oil, fracking, the cheese market wouldn't even be functioning right now if the government hadn't poured in billions of dollars buying all their cheese and paying corporations money to use and advertise tax payer bought cheese. Social engineering is all about the how, it's always going to happen. We just have less control over it now, under capitalism.


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Reply by Tuesday

posted

In response to your first comment, consider what I said directly before I said "They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with a chair."

This is why people who build a chair in the privacy of their own home get to do what they please with it. 

Those who made the chair in the privacy of their own home do get to take the chair home. Those who made the chair in the privacy of their own home do get to keep the chair. They get to keep the chair because they didn't make the chair for a company (and financial gain), they made the chair for themselves.

Under capitalism, you are allowed to build your own chairs. 

As I stated in the last paragraph of my first reply,

For example, the John Smith brand is a subsidiary of the Chair Company. The John Smith brand could have its own outlet (or John Smith, the individual sell the chairs in front of his house), but it would be better off in the market if consumers saw that the chair was in the Chair Company store, a reputable store where people know they can purchase quality chairs. 

There is nothing stopping you from building chairs and selling them on Etsy. But you'd be a fool to expect the same profits as an established brand would get.


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Reply by Tuesday

posted
updated

The workplace doesn't need to be organized from forces that do not participate in it. 


Workers are not entitled to supreme authority over a workplace simply for working there. You work for McDonalds the corporation, you have no right to changing the menu. If you seek to change the menu, create your own restaurant.

The government under socialism doesn't preserve rights but rather spreads privileges. Forcefully revoking a privilege from a group or individual for such a reason is immoral.

Liberal values and Marxism are fundamentally opposed to each other. Liberty and equality are extremely different concepts, as one focuses on the individual's rights while the other focuses on the group's needs or privileges. Now, like many philosophies, there's some overlap and leeway that can be afforded, but for the most part, the fundamental ideas that Marxism stands for of worrying for the many do not apply to liberalism, which worries for the individual. 

Marxism is inherently materialist. Liberalism is not. The Marxist state has goals and enforces from the top down (consider how you said socialism is about organizing the workplace, as if the government needs to organize things that are already organized in their own way). The Liberal state is called the Night Watchman state, only appearing when injustice does. Nobody but the Marxists believe that a worker creating a chair and selling it to his employer in return for a wage is injustice.

Freedom of choice is having the freedom to choose, not an entitlement to choices. You are free to choose what to do with yourself if you ever reach a fork in the road. You are not entitled to a road that has a fork in it. You are not entitled a job because you exist. No one aside from your parents owes you anything. You are not entitled to employment even though you spent several years getting a degree. No employer owes you anything. 

This isn't to argue against social safety nets and other programs. Pure capitalism is a joke. The McNukes joke, the idea that McDonald's should be allowed to own nuclear arms, is technically consistent with liberalism. However, pure liberalism / pure capitalism wouldn't work in a large society, simply because not all humans are good willed. Following this, an overwhelming majority of liberals and capitalists you meet are most likely not against welfare, but they are against a welfare state. It is an important distinction to be made.

Calling something like college or work "free" doesn't make it free, because somebody has to teach you, somebody has to create the buildings, somebody has to establish the curriculum, somebody has to make the books, create the schedules, organize the staff, clean the floors, whatever it takes to run such a large institution. You might get some volunteers, but what will happen if nobody feels like doing this for free? What if the money provided by the government isn't enough? What is the logical next step? 

Not all jobs merit a living wage. You could be hired to make paper cranes all day, that doesn't mean you should expect the same as someone who breaks their back in a warehouse. Not everyone contributed enough to society for society to give back enough to support them or their family. Frankly, I don't see why people who are tight on money keep starting families. 

I'm also not a fan of the idea that getting employed by someone else is the only way to make money. It's a frankly childish view of how to be successful. 

If this strive for "free" materials (equality) goes against Liberalism's notions of freedom, which will take priority? Letting people be free to wing it, even though that's unequal, or forcing the people into being equally educated, even though it might enter slavery territory?

Social engineering is not the same as trying to indirectly steer the economy in a certain direction (keyword, indirectly). The government did not demand cheese production, the government invested in the cheese market and hoped it would go well. At no point in time did the government decide that the entirety of Wisconsin create worker co-ops to increase cheese production. Odds are, the government saw how well Wisconsin (I know you didn't mention Wisconsin but they make an ungodly amount of cheese) creates cheese and decided to stimulate it for the benefit of both the farmers and the country's exports.

Social engineering is not simply placing people in a place where they are useful, social engineering is actively replacing already existing people and workers in order to advance a government agenda. Giving the government to kick out people in managerial positions because an employee thought they could do it better is dangerous. The government has a monopoly on violence.  This is a recipe for a terrifyingly authoritarian state.

It should be noted that fascism and socialism are incredibly alike, in the sense that both the socialists and fascists believe in redistribution of those who go against the state's agenda (the socialists and Communists may want state-mandated worker co-ops, the Fascists may want state-mandated propaganda outlets). 

This is why Fascist nations often appropriated land from those who went against the government, nationalized it, then handed it over to those who were willing to bend over to the government's demands.

Typically, I think socialists are simply fascists who don't understand the long-term consequences of their beliefs. Consider just how many times Hitler wrote about how he would whip the bourgeoise into obeying what the government told them to do. In the same manner that the fascists appropriate land, nationalize it, and find a designated state actor to take care of it, the socialists have no problem using the state to kick out the boss and replace him with either a collective or a "nicer", state-approved boss. 

I recommend ShortFatOtaku's "Fascism is Honest Socialism" on YouTube. If you do watch it, let me know. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts afterwards.

In conclusion,
socialism bad.

edit: I forgot the post was all about the video lol. watch it anyway


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Reply by Dominic

posted

damn you're dumb


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Reply by Smxth

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No it isn't.   


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Reply by Peter Coffin

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No, it isn't. Fascism is capitalism in crisis. Read R. Palme Dutt's scientific investigation into the subject, Fascism and Social Revolution.


Socialism is the lower stage of communism, a proletarian state with a goal of abolishing class. It is significantly further away from actual fascism than you can imagine.

People need to learn what fascism actually is before they call everything they see "fascism" on the internet.


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Reply by Helios (he)

posted

Nice red scare propaganda ya got there.


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Reply by Vigilante Stylez

posted

Idc what they call it.  If it is centralized government power, it is shit.  


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Reply by Aniela

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well, thats probably because they both started out as factory-workers-ish. Yes, the line between them might be vague sometimes, but the huge difference is probably the way they want to achieve stuff. Socialism was made to be achieved in legal ways, the revolutions should be peaceful. But fascism is a more cruel way of it. Limiting certain groups rights, extreme nationalism etc. 


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Reply by axie

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not the bozo ass horseshoe theory...

also
>"ShortFatOtaku"


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Reply by Nukeblast84

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Although I can see why some people would believe the horseshoe theory, its quite easy to see that even if some of the infamous founders were anti-capitalist (Anton Drexler and Benito Mussolini) they both advocated for Corporatists economics, especially the NSDAP with its "Socialism" coming from Prussian Socialism which is also corporatist economics. Now, its really anyone's interpretation to classify anything involving Fascism or "Third Position" economics as anything socialist as most of the time, its just interventionists and social solidarity among classes. Of course, Socialist and Marxist views on such a topic is that its to deceive the proletariat and that its naturally capitalists instead of being "Anti-Capital" like its usually espoused to be.  


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Reply by Gorbi

posted

Capitalist countries don't interfere with fascist countries, hell they even help them! Plenty of companies were still trading with Hitler even during the War. Some companies were paid reparations by the US since their Nazi factories were bombed. Capitalist countries only interfered with fascists of the 1930s cause their imperialism was starting to conflict with their own imperialism.


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Reply by Tuesday

posted

It is worth nothing that the "Corporation" as defined by the Fascist is not the same as the "Corporation" as defined by the Capitalist.

A lot of people have given smoothbrain replies. Some have given replies worth responding to. If anyone would like an extended conversation on the subject, feel free to add and message me!


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Reply by tumzam8

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bro watches shortfatotaku. that guy is a retard


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Reply by boshi

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"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced by someone else"

You've got it all backwards. Who creates the means of production? The elite? Under capitalism the capitalist owns the factory that was constructed by workers.


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Reply by Tuesday

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A worker who builds a chair is not entitled to the labor of others simply because they live in the same community. Is this an objectionable axiom?


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Reply by Rigamortis

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updated

Read "The Coming Corporate State" , "Doctrine of Fascism", "We Marched With Mosley", "BUF Oswald Mosley and British Fascism"


This will give you a good fundemental understanding on Fascism and what it sought to achieve at the time.


To add if you want to discuss this topic Further get in touch.


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Reply by ᛉΝικόλαςᛣ

posted

ME NE FREGO! ME NE FREGO! ME NE FREGO!
Italian building with Benito Mussolini saying "si si si" : r/evilbuildings


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Reply by jamie

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Capitalism inevitably creates a class of collaborating imperialists, those who purport the idea of "free competition" and "freedom" in general. The fact is, under capitalism people are not principally people. They exist primarily in their position in the class struggle. I recommend you pick up a book like State & Revolution by Vladimir Lenin or Principles of Communism by Friedrich Engels, rather than YouTube video essays by "ShortFatOtaku"s


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Reply by Tuesday

posted

You are aware that a video essay often has the same value as a treatise from a century ago? They serve the exact same purpose. It's fallacious to say one is more valuable than the other simply because one is on paper and the other is digital.


I've read some literature (although not everything listed) and often disagree with it. I understand the opposition more, but that doesn't mean I agree.


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Reply by a bus for a bus on the bus

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Amazing thread full of people who don't know the first basic rule of economics.


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Reply by a bus for a bus on the bus

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Then again, if they did, they wouldn't be communists.


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Reply by sam_nella

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« I recommend watching a video by ShortFatOtaku » says all it needs to say


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