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Fascism is Honest Socialism

Posted by Tuesday

posted

Forum: News and Politics

I recommend watching a video by SFO (ShortFatOtaku) on YouTube who discusses this concept more in depth.

The short and sweet of it is that fascists and socialists have a similar goal of using centralized force in an attempt to benefit a certain group in society. 

In both ideologies (unlike in liberal societies), the individual citizen is told not to prioritize themselves but the larger collective. The individuals' freedoms and desires are only preserved if the coincide with the desires of the government or larger collective. 

In Hitler's writings, he discusses how the bourgeoisie will listen to his demands, that they will do what they are told or suffer. Socialism is similar in these demands, expecting that the businesses owners of their societies must always obey their government.

Both of these ideologies are opposed to the liberal 'night watchman' state that is common under capitalism. The government of capitalist countries only interferes when it believes a right is being violated. Otherwise, it stays out of the equation. Compare this to the fascist/socialist states, where the business owner's desires are no longer listened to if the business owner dares to go against the interest of the state or 'voice of the people.'

The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced by someone else, as though means of production are limited. The fascist believes the same, but is also aware that businesses and people work better when they choose or enjoy what they are doing.

Thus, the socialist and fascism are one in the same: demanding of those they deem the out-group in a pursuit to benefit its in-group. 


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Reply by Macky

posted

"The short and sweet of it is that fascists and socialists have a similar
goal of using centralized force in an attempt to benefit a certain
group in society."

There is Libertarian Socialism, and more decentralized ways of organizing society like council communism/syndicalism. Fascism has no decentralized theory and it is inherently authoritarian.

There were smaller revolutions that fell due to other authoritarian/fascist government that used force to stop the revolutions. One of the most prominent Libertarian Socialist revolutions was in Revolutionary Catalonia, and it lasted for around 2 years. Even George Orwell visited Catalonia in that time period and was amazed on how everything was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzC937Q9Dc


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Reply by Macky

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"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced
by someone else, as though means of production are limited."

Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.


A CEO doesn't create any value inherently. They have invested money into the business, but they did not produce the end product. The workers are the one that created the commodity, therefore should own the fruits of their labor.


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Reply by Tuesday

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There is Libertarian Socialism, and more decentralized ways of organizing society like council communism/syndicalism. Fascism has no decentralized theory and it is inherently authoritarian.

A capitalist society, being a liberal society, usually follows the statement, "Create and sell what you wish, as long as you do not infringe on anyone's rights or person" (don't quote me on that, I just came up with that now; there's probably an actual quote that I'm looking for, but just don't have on my mind at the moment). The liberal society is typically referred to as a night watchman state: existing only to protect individuals from individual injustice.

Socialism means that the government has a desire outside of simply preserving rights. Socialism inherently has a view on how society should be, similar to what the fascists believe. The fascists and the socialists (and the communists, though I think it dangerous to always lump the two together) believe in social engineering, where the government attempts to shift the social demographics towards a more "fair" (or in the fascist case, "productive") society ("there are too many rich people!" as if it were a sin to be wealthy whilst others were not). 

Liberal values and Marxist ideas don't exactly mesh very well. While the short lived revolution in Catalonia may have been a step towards Libertarian Socialism, a post-revolution state would soon discover that the ideas of freedom of choice and social engineering are unable to coexist.

You might like The Road to Wigan Pier by Orwell. It doesn't relate too much to what was discussed here, but it seems like a read that would interest you.


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Reply by Tuesday

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Well, not exactly. Socialists believe that the workers own the value that they create and not have the profits go to the CEO, but rather to the workers instead.

A CEO doesn't create any value inherently. They have invested money into the business, but they did not produce the end product. 

Most CEOs don't stop working once their money machine is built. Expansion and innovation are both important parts of business. Most CEOs are responsible for their company - this is why CEO is also considered a position, and is not interchangeable with 'founder'. CEOs step down, and new CEOs step up. 

CEOs do create value. By creating a company that, as its own entity, creates and sells products (thus generating wealth), value was created because of the CEO's actions. 

The workers are the one that created the commodity, therefore should own the fruits of their labor.

The workers do own the fruits of their labor. This is why people who build a chair in the privacy of their own home get to do what they please with it. They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with the chair.

An employee, however, is a worker who chooses to sell the fruits of their labor to their employer, who is then able to sell that for even more, because the employer set up a business.

The socialist believes it immoral for an employer to sell the labor of another, even if done in a consensual and legally binding manner. The socialist does not believe that creating a means of selling something for higher profit is a service, even though it is.

It's easy to conceptualize this with brands. If each individual employee was referred to as though they were a subsidiary brand of the main brand of their employer, people would understand the morality of it easier. For example, the John Smith brand is a subsidiary of the Chair Company. The John Smith brand could have its own outlet (or John Smith, the individual sell the chairs in front of his house), but it would be better off in the market if consumers saw that the chair was in the Chair Company store, a reputable store where people know they can purchase quality chairs. 


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Reply by Emmynette

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"They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with the chair."


But they made the chair for a company who owns the product they make, they don't get to take that chair home, they have to go somewhere else and buy a chair for more money than it cost to make the chair in the first place, then they can do whatever with said chair they spent money on.


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Reply by Emmynette

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"Socialism means that the government has a desire outside of simply preserving rights."

Socialism is first and foremost about organizing the workplace, the government can either support it, or try to oppose it and support the business owners. Socialism, if enacted, would push to have a government who wouldn't try to dismantle it, by having democratically elected socialist/communist/anarchist officials in government who would protect the workers' rights to control their workplace. What does the government desire under socialism outside of preserving rights?
What liberal values don't go well with Marxism? How does "freedom of choice" look like now, with a competitive labor market where work isn't guaranteed, where people leaving college in debt are can't find jobs for degrees they paid for, where the only choice is go for the most paying job, even if it isn't the one you want, because the field you wanna go into doesn't pay enough to live on for one person, let alone a family. You think the freedom of choice would be worse with free college, guaranteed work, or a social safety net if you cant, and every single job paying a living wage? There's social engineering now with government subsidies, oil, fracking, the cheese market wouldn't even be functioning right now if the government hadn't poured in billions of dollars buying all their cheese and paying corporations money to use and advertise tax payer bought cheese. Social engineering is all about the how, it's always going to happen. We just have less control over it now, under capitalism.


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Reply by Tuesday

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In response to your first comment, consider what I said directly before I said "They worked on the chair, they now own the chair, and they can do what they like with a chair."

This is why people who build a chair in the privacy of their own home get to do what they please with it. 

Those who made the chair in the privacy of their own home do get to take the chair home. Those who made the chair in the privacy of their own home do get to keep the chair. They get to keep the chair because they didn't make the chair for a company (and financial gain), they made the chair for themselves.

Under capitalism, you are allowed to build your own chairs. 

As I stated in the last paragraph of my first reply,

For example, the John Smith brand is a subsidiary of the Chair Company. The John Smith brand could have its own outlet (or John Smith, the individual sell the chairs in front of his house), but it would be better off in the market if consumers saw that the chair was in the Chair Company store, a reputable store where people know they can purchase quality chairs. 

There is nothing stopping you from building chairs and selling them on Etsy. But you'd be a fool to expect the same profits as an established brand would get.


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Reply by Tuesday

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updated

The workplace doesn't need to be organized from forces that do not participate in it. 


Workers are not entitled to supreme authority over a workplace simply for working there. You work for McDonalds the corporation, you have no right to changing the menu. If you seek to change the menu, create your own restaurant.

The government under socialism doesn't preserve rights but rather spreads privileges. Forcefully revoking a privilege from a group or individual for such a reason is immoral.

Liberal values and Marxism are fundamentally opposed to each other. Liberty and equality are extremely different concepts, as one focuses on the individual's rights while the other focuses on the group's needs or privileges. Now, like many philosophies, there's some overlap and leeway that can be afforded, but for the most part, the fundamental ideas that Marxism stands for of worrying for the many do not apply to liberalism, which worries for the individual. 

Marxism is inherently materialist. Liberalism is not. The Marxist state has goals and enforces from the top down (consider how you said socialism is about organizing the workplace, as if the government needs to organize things that are already organized in their own way). The Liberal state is called the Night Watchman state, only appearing when injustice does. Nobody but the Marxists believe that a worker creating a chair and selling it to his employer in return for a wage is injustice.

Freedom of choice is having the freedom to choose, not an entitlement to choices. You are free to choose what to do with yourself if you ever reach a fork in the road. You are not entitled to a road that has a fork in it. You are not entitled a job because you exist. No one aside from your parents owes you anything. You are not entitled to employment even though you spent several years getting a degree. No employer owes you anything. 

This isn't to argue against social safety nets and other programs. Pure capitalism is a joke. The McNukes joke, the idea that McDonald's should be allowed to own nuclear arms, is technically consistent with liberalism. However, pure liberalism / pure capitalism wouldn't work in a large society, simply because not all humans are good willed. Following this, an overwhelming majority of liberals and capitalists you meet are most likely not against welfare, but they are against a welfare state. It is an important distinction to be made.

Calling something like college or work "free" doesn't make it free, because somebody has to teach you, somebody has to create the buildings, somebody has to establish the curriculum, somebody has to make the books, create the schedules, organize the staff, clean the floors, whatever it takes to run such a large institution. You might get some volunteers, but what will happen if nobody feels like doing this for free? What if the money provided by the government isn't enough? What is the logical next step? 

Not all jobs merit a living wage. You could be hired to make paper cranes all day, that doesn't mean you should expect the same as someone who breaks their back in a warehouse. Not everyone contributed enough to society for society to give back enough to support them or their family. Frankly, I don't see why people who are tight on money keep starting families. 

I'm also not a fan of the idea that getting employed by someone else is the only way to make money. It's a frankly childish view of how to be successful. 

If this strive for "free" materials (equality) goes against Liberalism's notions of freedom, which will take priority? Letting people be free to wing it, even though that's unequal, or forcing the people into being equally educated, even though it might enter slavery territory?

Social engineering is not the same as trying to indirectly steer the economy in a certain direction (keyword, indirectly). The government did not demand cheese production, the government invested in the cheese market and hoped it would go well. At no point in time did the government decide that the entirety of Wisconsin create worker co-ops to increase cheese production. Odds are, the government saw how well Wisconsin (I know you didn't mention Wisconsin but they make an ungodly amount of cheese) creates cheese and decided to stimulate it for the benefit of both the farmers and the country's exports.

Social engineering is not simply placing people in a place where they are useful, social engineering is actively replacing already existing people and workers in order to advance a government agenda. Giving the government to kick out people in managerial positions because an employee thought they could do it better is dangerous. The government has a monopoly on violence.  This is a recipe for a terrifyingly authoritarian state.

It should be noted that fascism and socialism are incredibly alike, in the sense that both the socialists and fascists believe in redistribution of those who go against the state's agenda (the socialists and Communists may want state-mandated worker co-ops, the Fascists may want state-mandated propaganda outlets). 

This is why Fascist nations often appropriated land from those who went against the government, nationalized it, then handed it over to those who were willing to bend over to the government's demands.

Typically, I think socialists are simply fascists who don't understand the long-term consequences of their beliefs. Consider just how many times Hitler wrote about how he would whip the bourgeoise into obeying what the government told them to do. In the same manner that the fascists appropriate land, nationalize it, and find a designated state actor to take care of it, the socialists have no problem using the state to kick out the boss and replace him with either a collective or a "nicer", state-approved boss. 

I recommend ShortFatOtaku's "Fascism is Honest Socialism" on YouTube. If you do watch it, let me know. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts afterwards.

In conclusion,
socialism bad.

edit: I forgot the post was all about the video lol. watch it anyway


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Reply by Dominic

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Reply by Smxth

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No it isn't.   


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Reply by Peter Coffin

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No, it isn't. Fascism is capitalism in crisis. Read R. Palme Dutt's scientific investigation into the subject, Fascism and Social Revolution.


Socialism is the lower stage of communism, a proletarian state with a goal of abolishing class. It is significantly further away from actual fascism than you can imagine.

People need to learn what fascism actually is before they call everything they see "fascism" on the internet.


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Reply by Avery (he)

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Nice red scare propaganda ya got there.


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Reply by Vigilante Stylez

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Idc what they call it.  If it is centralized government power, it is shit.  


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Reply by ♡ Aniela ♡

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well, thats probably because they both started out as factory-workers-ish. Yes, the line between them might be vague sometimes, but the huge difference is probably the way they want to achieve stuff. Socialism was made to be achieved in legal ways, the revolutions should be peaceful. But fascism is a more cruel way of it. Limiting certain groups rights, extreme nationalism etc. 


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Reply by axie

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not the bozo ass horseshoe theory...

also
>"ShortFatOtaku"


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Reply by Nukeblast84

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Although I can see why some people would believe the horseshoe theory, its quite easy to see that even if some of the infamous founders were anti-capitalist (Anton Drexler and Benito Mussolini) they both advocated for Corporatists economics, especially the NSDAP with its "Socialism" coming from Prussian Socialism which is also corporatist economics. Now, its really anyone's interpretation to classify anything involving Fascism or "Third Position" economics as anything socialist as most of the time, its just interventionists and social solidarity among classes. Of course, Socialist and Marxist views on such a topic is that its to deceive the proletariat and that its naturally capitalists instead of being "Anti-Capital" like its usually espoused to be.  


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Reply by Gorbi

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Capitalist countries don't interfere with fascist countries, hell they even help them! Plenty of companies were still trading with Hitler even during the War. Some companies were paid reparations by the US since their Nazi factories were bombed. Capitalist countries only interfered with fascists of the 1930s cause their imperialism was starting to conflict with their own imperialism.


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Reply by Tuesday

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It is worth nothing that the "Corporation" as defined by the Fascist is not the same as the "Corporation" as defined by the Capitalist.

A lot of people have given smoothbrain replies. Some have given replies worth responding to. If anyone would like an extended conversation on the subject, feel free to add and message me!


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Reply by tumzam8

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bro watches shortfatotaku. that guy is a retard


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Reply by boshi

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"The socialist believes he is entitled to means of productions produced by someone else"

You've got it all backwards. Who creates the means of production? The elite? Under capitalism the capitalist owns the factory that was constructed by workers.


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Reply by Tuesday

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A worker who builds a chair is not entitled to the labor of others simply because they live in the same community. Is this an objectionable axiom?


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Reply by Rigamortis

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updated

Read "The Coming Corporate State" , "Doctrine of Fascism", "We Marched With Mosley", "BUF Oswald Mosley and British Fascism"


This will give you a good fundemental understanding on Fascism and what it sought to achieve at the time.


To add if you want to discuss this topic Further get in touch.


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Reply by jamie

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Capitalism inevitably creates a class of collaborating imperialists, those who purport the idea of "free competition" and "freedom" in general. The fact is, under capitalism people are not principally people. They exist primarily in their position in the class struggle. I recommend you pick up a book like State & Revolution by Vladimir Lenin or Principles of Communism by Friedrich Engels, rather than YouTube video essays by "ShortFatOtaku"s


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Reply by Tuesday

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You are aware that a video essay often has the same value as a treatise from a century ago? They serve the exact same purpose. It's fallacious to say one is more valuable than the other simply because one is on paper and the other is digital.


I've read some literature (although not everything listed) and often disagree with it. I understand the opposition more, but that doesn't mean I agree.


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Reply by sam_nella

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« I recommend watching a video by ShortFatOtaku » says all it needs to say


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Reply by Alex_Sakh

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Basically Fascism and National-socialism are non-Marxist varieties of socialism . and if you compare the political practices of the USSR and Nazi Germany, it turns out that they are very close on the political spectrum. Both ideologies were based on the cult of the leader, the nationalization of private property (in other words, Hitler and Stalin seized industry into their own hands and used it to militarize the state). Sorry for my english , im from Russia and

i dont speak it well.


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Reply by gurzil

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I recognize these systems differ in key ways, especially in their goals and approaches to society and economy, they all sound good on paper but one's people starved while the others were enjoying their good striving economy and national pride they were offered, and im talking abt specific forms of these ideologies 


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Reply by Solus

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No fascist state ever destroyed private property + they collaborated with the bourgoise and sometimes even america.


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Reply by Jason

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Hitler also redefined socialism as something particularly racist and nationalist and then claimed Marx stole the idea. He basically did a no-true-scotsman with the term. I noticed you didn't mention that. I'm going to bet that the sources from which you got that old chestnut of a quote list aren't too keen on discussing it either. 

“‘When I take charge of Germany, I shall end tribute abroad and Bolshevism at home.’

 

Adolf Hitler drained his cup as if it contained not tea but the lifeblood of Bolshevism.

 

‘Bolshevism’, the chief of the Brown Shirts, the Fascists of Germany continued, ‘is our greatest menace. Kill Bolshevism in Germany and you restore 70 million people to power. France owes her strength not to her armies but to the forces of Bolshevism and dissension in our midst’…

 

I met Hitler not in his headquarters, the Brown House in Munich, but in a private home, the dwelling of a former admiral of the German Navy. We discussed the fate of Germany over the teacups.

 

‘Why’, I asked Hitler, ‘do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party program is the very anthesis of that commonly accredited to Socialism?’

 

‘Socialism’, he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, ‘is the science of dealing with the common weal [health or well-being]. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.

 

‘Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality and, unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.

 

‘We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our Socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the State on the basis of race solidarity. To us, State and race are one…

 

‘What’, I continued my cross-examination, ‘are the fundamental planks of your platform?’

 

‘We believe in a healthy mind, in a healthy body. The body politic must be sound if the soul is to be healthy. Moral and physical health are synonymous.’

 

‘Mussolini’, I interjected, ‘said the same to me’. Hitler beamed.

 

‘The slums’, he added, ‘are responsible for nine-tenths, alcohol for one-tenth of all human depravity. No healthy man is a Marxian. Healthy men recognise the value of personality. We contend against the forces of disaster and degeneration. Bavaria is comparatively healthy because it is not completely industrialised… If we wish to save Germany, we must see to it that our farmers remain faithful to the land. To do so, they must have room to breathe and room to work.’

 

‘Where will you find the room to work?’

 

‘We must retain our colonies and expand eastward. There was a time when we could have shared world domination with England. Now we must stretch our cramped limbs only toward the east. The Baltic is necessarily a German lake.'”

https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/hitler-nazi-form-of-socialism-1932/


The Nazi's also spent a good deal of time in the mid-1930s privatizing government functions. You're basically falling for all the same rhetoric that German workers did in the late 20s and early 30s without looking at what the Nazis actually did. Do you also believe that North Korea is a democracy because the country is formally called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? I mean, they used the word. It has to be true!

I didn't bother getting into Mussolini because I think it is pretty clear what you are falling for here. 


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Reply by RedKamel

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If you belive that you dont know what either are. Read juche


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Reply by THC

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Why the fuck are you dick-riding CEOs who objectively view your life as just a number on a sheet to make more numbers on a sheet get bigger.


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Reply by Ray

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Fascist states had to keep capitalism in some shape or form because their economy would be destroyed with pure socialism, lol. Without privatization no one would produce, and the government would steal from everyone.


Capitalism is not "a class of collaborating imperialists who exist to enslave you". Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production, prices and goods are privatized, and where the only role of government is to protect the individual rights of citizens. Not by being involved through cronyism (lobbyism) nor creating hundreds of different useless agencies. In a free market with no government intervention, anyone can produce and distribute these goods.


This also separates labor from slavery. Why? Because this economic system respects the consent and free will of others. You trade as equals by mutual consent to mutual advantage. You agree to labor yourself for the business of YOUR choosing and you sign the contract at your own will. Where's the imperialism, again?


Unlike socialism (or other any economic system, for that matter), where it demands you to give up your mind and utilize your body for the greater good of your "class"--not for your own personhood.


"The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in 'society as a whole,' i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government." -The Virtue of Selfishness.


The motives of socialism and fascism are alike: abolishing poverty (Nazis blamed the Jews, Marxists blamed the producers), the achieving of an undefined, undirected sense of general prosperity (and definitely not that of one's own), and brotherhood (this brotherhood-ness is unearned and arbitrarily decided. The less you have, whether it be racially-related or wealth, the more you deserve it.)

Also, to last thread reply, you're going to mean nothing to CEOs because you haven't earned it, lol. A country ran on the self-made man is better than any country that decides your value based on divine right, racial right, class right, etc.

And if your worth is based on the producers' evaluation of you, then you have ways to go.


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Reply by Bill Hooper

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Socialism is an economic engine

Fascism is a system of governance


You can have a socialist economy under every form of government, from totalitarianism to pure democracy.


Fascism can exist overseeing free markets and socialist systems.

Poli/sci courses are generally available online at reasonable costs.


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Reply by Dorothea Reich

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You... you have a point man, really you do... it makes sense... maybe we all just want a better society, maybe this is why people always mistakes socialists and fascists!


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Reply by Dorothea Reich

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You... you have a point man, really you do... it makes sense... maybe we all just want a better society, maybe this is why people always mistakes socialists and fascists!


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Reply by Seftor

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Just because two forms of government share centralisation, does NOT mean that they are in any way similar. Socialism talks about allocating financial power to the "Soviets" or worker's collectives while enforcing a socially progressive system. That is why it is generally accused for implementing blanket equality. Fascism on the other hand enforces a corporatist system, a mixture of private and public industries, essencially employing the market to serve national interests while enforcing strong social conservatism, excluding those who do not abide by it. Yes, Mussolini was inspired by socialist revolutionary thinking, but twisted it to fit within nationalism, thus birthing the 3rd position. In conclusion, just because both societies have a cult of personality and wish to overthrow the old order, their goals are incompatible with eachother. Both seek to overthrow the "corrupt liberal order" but the former because it believes it cannot bring forth the necessary socio-economic change without revolution (see the Bolshevik-Menshevik split) and the latter because they feel that it has gone to far and a reactionary policy is the way forward. Totalitarianism is not common enough grounds to make them one, in the same way not all libertarian or anarchist ideologies are synonymous. Every ideology provides a mixture of social, political and economic critique of society and Fascism, Communism share the political model, but differ on the rest. Not to even mention that ideally Communism is not actually an ideology but rather the interpretation of socialist theory, thus leading to a stateless, classless and moneyless society.


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Reply by k4ti3z_c0nc1ous(ᵔᴥᵔ)✿

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So Is the country going in a socialist direction RN? or no


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Reply by IntelIdiot

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Circular theory - Far enough left you go right etc etc. At the end of the day, all political constructs are based off of control. No matter what, Fascist or communist the poor suffer while the ones at the top glean the rewards. The only true way to live free and prosperously is to return to clan based tribal living. The Industrial Revolution had immense consequences for the human race. Both Fascism and Communism are very clear indications of that.


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Reply by 4L3xP

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Kinda old, but I understand fascism & socialism as "related", but deeply differentiated in between. 

Socialism is, first & foremost, about the distribution of wealth and the struggles between social classes. Socialism acknowledges the conflicts between those in the upper & lower sectors of society & how individualism, applied by the rich as the consolidation & hoarding of wealth, directly empoverishes & even opresses the poorer. This can be clearly seen for example in The Hunger Games (2012), where the lower social classes of the outer districts are attacked by the upper classes, who steal & hoard their wealth for their own benefit.

Fascism on the other hand, is primarely about the supremacy of the nation. Fascism recognises, unlike other kinds of conservative liberalism, the social classes, but insists on the idea of this divide being natural & necessary. This is especially clear in the cult classic  Metropolis (1927), where it's shown how the class war supposedly hurts both & how the true enemy of the story is "social decadence" as represented by the evil robot.

In practice both systems have often times fell on authoritarianism: socialism by a "necessity of defence" (much like Thomas Sankara) or by lies & manipulation of the people (like Nicolás Maduro), while fascism always insists from its inception abouth their authoritarian nature (see Benito Mussolini's Sep 20th, 1922 speech).

Overall, although there are similarities between the two, they also couldn't be further apart. One wishes for equality & justice for the lower classes, the other one on national supremacism.


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Reply by Bug77423

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Kirk deserved what he got. Hate speech should never be Free speech. 


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Reply by ҜͶΛRÐ

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updated

This argument misrepresents both socialism and fascism by conflating two very different ideologies and oversimplifying liberalism.

*False equivalence between socialism and fascism

Socialism and fascism are fundamentally opposed in theory and practice.

- Socialism
seeks democratic control or ownership of the means of production, aiming for economic equality and the empowerment of workers. It can be authoritarian (e.g., Stalinism) or democratic (e.g., Nordic social democracy, which coexists with robust civil liberties).

- Fascism
, by contrast, is a far-right ultranationalist ideology that preserves private property but subordinates it to the goals of the state. It is explicitly anti-democratic, anti-socialist, and anti-liberal. Mussolini and Hitler violently crushed socialist and communist movements.

To equate these two ignores their historical enmity and distinct goals: socialism tries to level class distinctions, while fascism enforces hierarchy, nationalism, and often racial supremacy.

*Mischaracterization of collectivism vs. individual freedom

Liberal societies also demand that individuals subordinate some desires to the collective — that is the very basis of law. Taxes, anti-discrimination laws, and public health mandates all override individual preferences in the name of the public good. The claim that liberal capitalism is a "night-watchman state" is inaccurate; most capitalist democracies maintain large welfare states, regulate markets, and intervene in the economy.

*Misinterpretation of Hitler’s writings

While Hitler spoke about compelling obedience, this was not a call for worker empowerment or equality — it was about enforcing racial hierarchy and loyalty to the nation-state. Fascism’s treatment of business was not socialist: big business was largely preserved, and many industrialists thrived under fascism as long as they cooperated with state goals.

*Misrepresentation of socialism’s economic stance

Socialists do not claim that the "means of production are limited" in a zero-sum sense; they argue that production should serve collective needs rather than private profit. Socialism does not necessarily mean taking away personal property — rather, it refers to changing ownership and control of productive assets (factories, major infrastructure) to benefit the public.

*Oversimplification of capitalism

Capitalist states do not merely act as neutral arbiters protecting rights. They shape markets through subsidies, bailouts, tariffs, monetary policy, and corporate regulation — sometimes in ways that favor powerful business interests over ordinary citizens.









*Incorrect conclusion that "socialism and fascism are one and the same"

This conclusion erases the historical reality that socialists were among the first groups targeted and killed under fascist regimes. The ideological roots, social bases, and goals of socialism and fascism are not interchangeable — one seeks to dismantle oppression based on class, the other enforces hierarchy and often scapegoats minorities.


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Reply by anarchist

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you should watch "the state is counter revolutionary" by anark on youtube 


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