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※※ neurodivergence (of any kind) general thread & advice ※※

yes, I understand that there's currently one thread on ADHD that already exists, however the person who made it is just using it to shill their own support services, and it's not getting too much discussion on it so far anyway, so I decided to make a more uniform thread to generate some actual discussion.

so, yeah, use this date-bumped topic to discuss, get advice for, and help deal with brain worms and such things.


posting questions/answers and advice is highly encouraged - there are no stupid questions here.

2 years late edit: now just putting "neurodivergence" instead of arbitrarily capping it at ADHD/autism or whatever

- people on the internet are not professionals.
- everyone is human (except for bots. Report bots.)
- sort by newest first!!


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Reply by Melrose

posted

As an adult that fields the world of Neurodiversity on a regular basis, here's some helpful tips to those that are dealing with the same.


  • Don't be afraid to make lists to speak to your doctors about your concerns. Even the smallest mentions matter. 
  • Most health insurances today cover mental health services provided by telemedicine using video call systems with security. If you are stranded in a rural living situation, this is the best possible option to take care of you first.
*If you are struggling with anxiety, remember to reframe, and ground.
  • To reframe, list four objects within your immediate line of sight.
  • Describe them to yourself based on color and shapes you see.
  • Do these objects have a purpose and use? Recall what they are.
Congratulations, you've reframed. And yes, you can repeat this tactic with in your home and work spaces at any given point in time that you feel anxiety the most at.
  • To ground yourself is similar to a brief moment of meditative practice. This allows you to breath a little easier, ease your mental stress, and find solutions with a clearer mindset.
  • If you have children that have conditions, please do not do the research on "google university", listen to your doctors and caregivers advice first, and if you feel it's wrong, ask for a second opinion from a different specialist or get referred to one.

  • If a doctor denies you care, ask for that to be documented and get printouts of that visits summary. 

It doesn't sound like much, but in many cases, doctors deny care for changing medicines for pain sufferers, mental health patients, and for those that have undiagnosed conditions due to misinformation still circulating in the medical fields regarding women's health care, and in many times miss important signs for PCOS, Fibrosis and other conditions that frequently can be treated or regulated if caught and diagnosed early enough.

And if you are seeking health advice for medicinal green-treatments and your primary care refuses to discuss it, seek another doctor. Close mindedness in the medical community in regards to marijuana treatments for mental health and pain regulation is VERY common unfortunately.


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Reply by mia<3

posted

Hiii!! how do people with ADHD and other disorders deal with emotional dysregulation and emotional outburtst around and at people with out medication :)

Any advice/help would be appreciated!!!


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Reply by Tag

posted

i have add, autism, and GAD so,,,,, some of the ways i cope with attention or emotional issues (and though this might sound really steriotypical) is finding music/types of sounds you like and stimming. for me one of the biggest things that helps me focus is just like calming outside noises. and as for stimming that can be with fidget toys or just like hand flapping. 


i will also say, if you stim a lot with your body by hand flapping i would recommend trying to find a similar stim that doesnt end up ruining your wrists. this might just be my hypermobility but i had wrist pain for the longest time and it was from just shaking my wrists all the time.


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Reply by GloomyBear420

posted
updated

I have ADD and still struggle with it well into my adulthood. I've learned a few things over time:

-as a previous poster said, reframing and knowing how to reframe is important. 
-sometimes, you have to say something out loud to really understand it or to help yourself better act on it.
-transitional activities are AMAZING. Washing your hands, standing up and changing position, and I'm sure there are many more out there that can help you move from task to task easier. Do something you feel like you can do first, and the bigger tasks won't seem so bad.
-you don't have to be the best one at everything you do. you deserve to feel good with yourself just for showing up. no seriously. even if you're not enough for other people, you're not looking to fill their cup...your life is about filling yours.
-I complete tasks based on if-then statements. If I'm in the kitchen, I'll wipe down a surface or put a dish or two where it needs to go. If I'm in the bathroom I'm wiping down a surface there, too. Tasks by location seem to work for me best, because everything I'm doing/planning to do is within my sight. Small cleaning tasks help me let out some nervous energy.
-A collection of fidgets are your friend(s)! A good fidget and some background music and I can finally focus on a mental task lol
-Not every ADD/ADHD behavior is going to apply to you. You are a unique human being, and will not fit into every box so neatly. In fact, consider yourself a complex person who "exhibits add/adhd/neuroatypical behaviors" not a human embodiment of your neurodivergence. 
-With that previous framing, also realize that perspective on yourself doesn't invalidate your inclusion from these groups but instead lets you understand you can be a part of many, many groups in your life, and that's good! You're not an outsider to the world, you are a part of it!
-Whatever weird way you have to go about something to get a task finished or to begin a task is valid as long as it's harmless. People are going to give you shit for it but honestly? they suck lmao. If you gotta put on shoes indoors to make sure you cook yourself a meal, or whatever, go for it. People who aren't neurotypical can change their trajectory or mindset with tactile, auditory, and other stimuli. It seems we react to these things with a certain sensitivity that others don't have.
-Medication can be helpful, but sometimes you need to ask yourself if it's still helpful once in a while. Only get off meds with the guidance of a professional or you will experience heavy withdrawal symptoms. Maybe your 24 year old self needed meds, and your 25 year old self didn't, and your 28 year old self needed them again. All of this is okay. There's nothing chemically wrong with us, but our environment and lifestyles can make it extremely hard to successfully achieve our goals and overall function, so when those things around us change, we need to step back and discuss with an expert about if we need to change how we respond to these new settings and schedules. Therapists that help give you the mental tools to handle existence (that understand add/adhd/etc) can help you figure this stuff out, always seek an expert in the field and don't be afraid of second, even third, opinions.
-Keep a tab on new information and studies about the behaviors affecting you! You never know what sort of breakthroughs that might pop up that resonate with you!

Sorry for the long ramble, but I hope I can be of some help to someone! :) Feel free to add me if you want, just keep in mind that I'm 29 lol


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Reply by Em0princess666

posted

hey, fellow autistic girl here....advice with adhd will be useful, my boyfriend of 11 months has it and im still educating myself to make life easier for us. im not suprised if i have adhd a little myself the more ive identified from it, but hey its a great idea if you are in a relationship and your partner is neurotypical, the least that could be done is to do ur research! it is benifitial on both parties :3 just my advice

my boyfriend is also incredibly supportive around my autism and i couldnt thank him enough so the best thing i can do is to show the same support back ! this can also go with friends, they will appriciate it ! thanks for reading


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Reply by z

posted

anyone got any advice for dealing with executive dysfunction? doctors keep not taking my childhood adhd diagnosis seriously and it feels like i cant get any fucking help in my real adult life


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Reply by Milla

posted

i have not been diagnosed with adhd or self dianosed it but i have a lot of the symptoms, like my fiddling problem and forgetting problem r huge, i also have lots of tantrums n shit can anyone help?

i tried asking my parents if they needed help but they said its all normal, so thats why im not self-diagnosing


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Reply by THE ▌ᴀᴛҠӀИԌ▐ OF SPACEHEY

posted

re:xXQuinn.CatastropheXx

>fiddling problem

i've heard this phrased before and it's likely a type of stimming. this can be a symptom of either ADHD or ASD or something else. it usually takes 3-5 symptoms min to pinpoint a disorder.

>forgetting problem, lots of tantrums

haven't seen these described as ADHD symptoms, haven't experienced them either. could be something else i haven't researched. these are common neurotypical traits but "lots of tantrums" sticks out to me. in a way


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Reply by Starz

posted
updated

I’m not a adult yet, but I struggle with ADHD a lot. 

It was a little harder when I waz younger. I waz undiagnosed until late 2020, as a kid my elementary school grouped ADHD, autism, And any neurodivergent disorders together, so when I took a autism “test” and they said I didn’t have autism the school accused my family of lying because they saw all my ADHD symptomz and labeled it as autism. I waz also bullied and teacherz often put me in time out for not paying attention when I couldn’t help it


Getting diagnosed was a relief and stressful, but overall I’m glad it happened, if you have ADHD or any symptoms of any other disorder please go to a doctor if you can and check it out, it can really help(and please don’t self diagnose)


And now some questionz:

Medz not having any effectz?:

I feel medication doesn’t do anything anymore, I’ve asked my doctor and she said to track it, but nothing has really came out of that at all, iz anyone else struggling with thiz?

How to deal with annoying ppl?:

Even now kidz at my school group ADHD and autism together and mock both of them.(At least this school district actually knowz the differencez and helpz a lot)

I told a “friend” I have ADHD and they won’t stop making fun of me :[ 

They make fun of my hyperfixationz and in arrangementz they just say “special!” and figet to mock me (I don’t get if they are trying to joke around but it’z not funny and it really botherz me)

Edit: I don’t have autism, my schools thought I did despite doctors saying I didn’t when I took tests(I just realized that i may have phrased that wrong, sorry! I don’t think I have it either) 


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Reply by Melrose

posted

@Starz I would suggest speaking to your doctor about taking your case more seriously, even as a older child it's important they listen to their patients needs, and make sure it's documented by the physician if they don't. They usually change their minds fairly quickly if you tell them to make sure to note that in your records that they denied your need for care. It's a tactic many adults with ADHD and other mental disorders use to get the care we need.

There are some medications that have adverse reactions for folks in the Autistic spectrum, make note of anything that seems off, odd, or unusual to you when you take anything new for treatment, okay? Most doctors miss important details like reversed reactions in a lot of us and tend to disregard reports of side effects as a casual "Oh, you'll get used to it" thing, when it's more serious than they make it out to be. Keep pushing them to take you more seriously about the need for help. If that doctor doesn't listen, another will.


That friend you speak of sounds like a real jerk, I'd stop talking to them and find new friends deary cause yeah, that's a real butthead move on their part.


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Reply by xxjettxx<3

posted

ok so ummmm--

** fair warning if i say anything that might be considered offensive or anything idk how to say this kinda stuff in a respectful way im learning **


multiple friendz of mine have made the assumption that i have ASD / am on the spectrum, after i have (for like a  year or so now ?) have been wondering if i do (and thinking that i might) be autistic/have autism and i really want to get evaluated. i've talked to my parents about it (because i cant go on my own) and they have said no TWICE !!  what do i do ?? i REALLY don't want to self-diagnose, or constantly wonder about it !!  someone helpppppppppppp !!!


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Reply by Starz

posted
updated

@deadbeat and @melrose

I actually got the friend issue sorted out now! I still have some classes with them, but luckily, they have started to leave me alone :) 

Medication hasn’t really gone anywhere (especially since there is a shortage where I live right now)

But I’m hoping for the best! no medication is hard but I’ve had worse

Also to anyone surffering in this shortage, I wish you luck! I know you can do this, and im sorry that this is how 2023 has started off! ):

 (It started in late 2022 but it’s worse now)

Edit: I finally got my medication back, I’ll report after a week


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Reply by brandon

posted

For people who have anxiety disorders like myself, a good way to ground yourself is by doing these things.

- going outside and focusing on your surroundings in very close detail and try to appreciate every bit of it (i generally go out barefoot so it makes a deeper connection but I know not everyone will like that)
- eating something with really intense flavors whenever you are disassociating is a good way to get back to earth, i eat wintergreen mints since it will calm my stomach and it has a strong flavor.
- working out has changed my life greatly, the uncertainty of looking good is easily washed away with confirmation of it with muscles you worked your butt off for. the amount of endorphins you get from working out as well will probably keep your anxiety on the downlow too, remember to practice good sleep and hydration with this too.

I also recommend looking into philosophies such as Stoicism. It has actually helped to make certain therapies for people who have uncertainty in their life and worries, such as Logostherapy.

One last note, it is easy to get lost in the cycle of anxiety, but dont ever pity yourself. Pitying yourself is one way to stay lost in that mindset. Everyone has anxiety, its just a part of life. It may seem hard, but put that trust within yourself and you can achieve great things.


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Reply by Ghoul

posted
updated

i think a big part of why it’s so hard for autistic ppl and ppl w adhd struggle with starting + completing tasks is bcz they don’t know where to start, and it can get overwhelming!! like if i start picking up the trash in my room, and then do clothes after, what if i find garbage underneath a clothing item on the floor? what about the other way around? should i put my dirty clothes away first, or my clean ones?? 

the way i found works is working from one area to another instead of by category!! and just spreading out tht way!! :) even when i’m at work and i’m doing a spreadsheet or something… i start at the bottom and work my way up!! 

and i think it’s easier to pick a starting spot and stick to it!! so like every time i clean my room, i start with on top of my bed, and then under it, and then i habe a little route i take for the whole thing. 

i think also the like… doing areas vs categories can make it a little bit more of a stimulating experience!! jst for me personally, letting myself put things away that all have different homes helps me focus more and stay on task vs doing the same thing with the same goal for an extended period of time.

ALSO, i have lists all over my house. :) so like… little checklists inside those protector things so dry erase markers work on it!! so i get all my chores/hygiene stuff done!! there’s a calendar that has all my stuff on it and i think that especially is great!! cuz then also it just feels really good to see that i’m doing what i’m supposed to!!

BUT!!!! if u make a calendar too, don’t be discouraged if u don’t fill out stuff every day!! you are doing the best you can and that’s what matters!! and you should be SOOO proud that you’re taking steps and doing what you can!! hold yourself to YOUR standards ans abilities, not anybody else’s!!

ONE MORE THING: YOUTUBE. finding youtube videos of people doing the stuff ur supposed to be doing can be helpful! my little brain wants to always conform to what the people around me are doing— so it makes me want to stay on task when i see another person doing something. like those study with me timer videos! 


edit: forgot to say! my older sister put me on this method rule thing? don’t put things down, put them away. THAT has changed EVERYTHING for me! (when i remember)


another edit: AUGHH sorry 4 all the edits i keep thinking of stuff after i press send.

@xxjettxx<3

do you have access to your insurance information? :) i’m not sure how it works for minors (if you are one?) but i’m still under my dad’s insurance and i can get access to medical professionals thru my insurance’s app/website!! all you need is your insurance card with your plan number stuff on it and you should be able to make an account on ur insurance’s website/app!! there should be some telehealth options depending on ur plan and all that?? :) 

BUT if you are a minor, prob gonna need parental permission for stuff no matter what!! 

maybe talk to a school counselor/if your school has a disability center? they might be able to point you in the right direction and talk to your parents about getting the help you need. my school counselor did that for me in high school and that’s the push my dad needed to help me get my OCD diagnosis so i could finally get accommodations!! 


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Reply by Big_Dipper

posted

i need advice

for the longest time ive felt like i have autism because i have a truck load of the symptoms and on my moms side my mom and brother has it, and on my dads side another brother has add.

but everytime i bring it up to my dad and step mom they immediatly deny i have it and how my step mom would just "know" because shes a 5th grade teacher and works with kids, but im 15 and these kinds of things are different for everyone. And everytime i bring it up to my mom she just says "maybe" and tells my dad what i think and i get scolded for it.

I just dont know what to do anymore because i cant get diagnosed because my dad wouldnt let me, and my mom cant even tho she would if she could. But i dont want to self diagnose :(


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Reply by Rosyquartz

posted

USE THE WEBSITE GOBLIN.TOOLS!!! 

That website has single handedly given me the motivation to clean my room it's actually amazing, it also has a tone interpreter


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Reply by abbi

posted

does anyone have advice for focusing/ paying attention in school with adhd TᴖT last school year I almost flunked bc of lack of focus and I wanna have better grades for high school. any tips?


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Reply by UrlocalPossum

posted

I mean, reminders app is like my savior, well when I use it, thanks for reminding me to make a remind to bring tape tomorrow lol, listening to music tends to help my focus so maybe give it a try? Break big tasks into several smaller tasks and reward yourself when you complete each of them, tends to help me. 


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Reply by UrlocalPossum

posted

Posting another reply bc I also need help, ironic Ik I just gave advice, but I was wondering how to handle my emotions and moods? I’ve always had very strong emotions and I know schools have been teaching kids the basics of managing strong emotions but that doesn’t really help much when most of the emotions you experience daily are intense. I also have noticed I seem to have mood swings, I can go from extremely excited and giddy to irritate and pissed within a few hours, it’s almost comedically easy to either bring my mood down to stressed, angry, or depressed, or bring my mood right back up where I’m hopping off the walls with excitement, joy, or euphoria. I can’t really keep a stable mood, I don’t flow, it’s like I’m being violently thrown from one emotion to the other. What do I do about this? 


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Reply by AltWoman_XD

posted

I got tested for ADHD when I was a kid. However it came back inconclusive, but I was diagnosed with multiple intellectual disabilities (which I realised later are probably just all characteristics of ADHD) and anxiety. So people always knew I am Atypical and needed learning accommodations. Eventually when I was in college, I got retested and officially diagnosed with ADHD. Plus when I first met my boyfriend, he could tell I had it (before I was officially diagnosed). 

What helps me is chunking things up and taking a step back. Plus hiding things that are easy distractions.


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Reply by sudisch

posted

First of all hello dearest users, i have some questions about mental health. I'm using adhd medicines for 5 years but i think i have some personality disorder. As i said idk but my doctor just giving me the antidepresant. When I was 15 i had some traumatic things. While im arguing with my mom im loosing myself. Do I have to go another doctor?


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Reply by Mosi

posted

i have adhd + smth that helps me is to have a hat i wear Only when im doing chores!! its a gentle lil reminder to myself and every1 else in the house that im trying to get stuff done


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Reply by Biggest_Wouser☆

posted

I have adhd, here r some tips I use for school and home!

School-

• use chewing gum to pay attention if you can

• try to look for patterns or fun facts in the project or lesson your working on, it’ll make it ten times easier to focus if it’s fun 

• our brains look for dopamine bcuz we have less of it, and dopamine can be found in junk food, books, tv, etc, so while studying, have breaks every 10-20 mins where you can have some snacks to keep you going!


Home-

• when cleaning, shut doors, windows, etc. (outside distractions) and put on headphones or just music to help you enter focused mode.

• safe foods, like things that aren’t to fancy and don’t have crazy textures, are really good to eat if u have adhd


Hope this helps!


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Reply by Kenny (☆_@)

posted

I had to leave school due to bullying, I hate not being there sm because my special interest is city life, schools, popularity, and just anything school related. i. have no idea what to do


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Reply by Kenny (☆_@)

posted

I had to leave school due to bullying, I hate not being there sm because my special interest is city life, schools, popularity, and just anything school related. i. have no idea what to do


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Reply by ✧ tr4sh_r4tty ✧

posted

@Kenny (☆_@) You can try to enjoy city life without school, doing small walks or just enjoying your city in general, observing small things, people, places. You can also try to find online study groups to get you motivated (and for body double)


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Reply by benny // whalefall

posted
updated

i've got adhd and autism and i struggle real bad with shit memory and time blindness

i've got pda too basically (well, cptsd fight mode) so anyone else 'helping' just annoys me, setting timers is like me annoying myself 

nothing has worked. except for an app called Little Timer that i use because it's actually cute & stim-worthy. but you can't leave the app while the timer is going, and because it's 'for kids' you can only set timers for up to like 20 mins i think. you can't set proper calendar alerts

i have a fine google calendar, a not awful schedule on paper,

it's more my brain that needs to not fuck itself up


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Reply by Tyler i guess

posted

man my reading skills have dropped so far since college... are stimulants the answer?  Do u think I could read better on stimulants?

also i struggle with self harm not in a depression way but like my little sperg brain needs some ouchie to feel okay


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Reply by isabella 💤🇪🇹

posted

As a literal bum and genius w/ adhd, it’s hard for me to do regular shit but sometimes easy for me to do something that’s complicated. 


For me, when I have work to do I listen to music, podcasts or gameplays. If you do listen to something, it should easy to block out when your in hyper focus. 


To help with modavation, starting to make yt vlogs can/could help you daily/ day to day stuff. 


I hope this helped, I only have ADHD so for other mental thingies I can say anything!


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Reply by LilytheFaun

posted

Here's some advice of ADHD
There are somewhat 2 versions, you could have 1 or both like me.
The main difference between them is.

1. You don't seem hyper at all but you're clearly messy in some way, can't focus too well, and obviously get distracted.
2. The hyper is what people normally expect from ADHD, too much energy, can't stay still, and so on.

Of course there are other stuff that may lap between the two but you know if you have both if it seems one day you're hyper but the next day you're just chill.
Another note, do you wake up with the correct amount of sleep but seem to have barely any energy? 

You're not alone, this can happen to us, if you're struggling to do your normal full day routine just don't do the whole routine. I mean like for example, lets say you walk a dog for 30 minutes normally. But your energy is just not there for the day. Then walk the dog for like 10-15 minutes instead. That way you still do what your suppose to do but you don't over do yourself in your current state. It's ok if you can't put all your effort into the day. Breakfast? Eat cereal instead of cooking, Need to clean? Just do a small bit specially for something like as a example.. Sometimes I leave out a lot of water bottles, I grab those sometimes and throw them away and I purposely get twice as much trash I normally pile up. Like lets say I only drink 1 water bottle a day, I would grab 2 or even 3 empty water bottles that way when I do get water that day it won't harm my progress. Oh a great way to purposely make yourself clean is like if your gonna go by the trash can rather it's you going to the kitchen or maybe you walk pass it to go to the bathroom. Just grab some small trash to throw away along the way, I normally make sure there's at least 1 bottle water in my line of sight somewhere to make me go, "You should grab some bottles along the way." This could be applied to anything else involving your routine or at least to get yourself to stop forgetting something. 


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Reply by pumpkien

posted

i dont have nothing but i keep peeling the skin off my lips fingers and such how do i stop anyone i also peel off some parts of my nails like uhh why i want to stop but i cant


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Reply by estrella

posted

any advice on how to help a partner who's dealing with emotional regulation issues? 
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help is VERY APPRECIATED!


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Reply by Jannie

posted

I have OCD, and here are some things other OCD sufferers might want to know.

 Disclaimer: Intrusive Thoughts revolve around things you DON'T want to happen. Having intrusive thoughts is normal, and while you cannot control your thoughts, you can control your actions, and this is what really matters

now that's out of the way, here are some things id like to bring to light

  • Do you know about groinal responses?

    In short, a groinal response is a feeling of arousal after experiencing a typically sexual intrusive though, but there is more to it. This does not mean that you like the thought, or want it to happen. In NOCD's article on groinal responses (here i will link to it, genuinely really helped me and it might help you too), they say:
    "Groinal response is a feeling of arousal. It can include swelling, tingling, warmth, moisture, lubrication, tumescence (swelling or feeling of fullness), sensitivity to small movements, partial erection or full erection. A groinal response in OCD is often linked to an intrusive feeling, thought, urge or image.
     (for me personally, it also included feeling my heartbeat speed up and my face get hot. These are also part of groinal responses, even though they do not happen in the groin area)

  • In another part of the article, they explain why groinal responses happen:
    "
    So why do arousal responses happen? It’s a phenomenon known as arousal non-concordance. Sometimes, our genital areas will respond to stimuli even though we don’t really find them sexually arousing—it’s a mismatch between our real desires and our body’s response.

    To sum things up, when a person with OCD experiences a groinal response (or any other unwanted physical sensation that they associate with arousal, such as blushing), they often feel disgusted because they believe that groinal responses only happen due to sexual desire. However, there are many other causes that can contribute to these sensations. Groinal response can happen when one is in a heightened state of anxiety, feeling joy, feeling pain, or excitement. We call these high arousal emotions

    Simply put, a groinal response is not always an indicator of arousal. Just because someone with OCD is experiencing a groinal response does not mean that their thoughts are representative of a desire or fantasy."

  • It can also happen with any kind of ocd revovling around sexual intrusive thought, like ones revolving around Beastiality, Incest, Pedophilia (its more common than you think, you are not alone) or just anything you are scared of being attracted to

  • Here i will link to articles on different OCD subtypes :
    Existential OCD
    False Memory and Real Event OCD
    Harm OCD
    Health and Contamination OCD
    Perfectionistic OCD
    Pure OCD, or "Pure O"
    Relationship OCD
    Religious OCD
    Responsibility OCD
    Sensorimotor OCD
    Sexuality and Gender OCD

    I myself have experienced Perfectionistic, Religious, Harm, Real Event, Relationship, Moral, Pedophilia AND Health OCD in the years that Ive been aware of me having it (half of my life)


I hope knowing about Groinal Responses can help someone in some way. OCD can ruin your life and wreck your relationships. You are not alone


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Reply by Emeraldo

posted

Here's some advice for dermatillomania, biting kind. It's the kind we've had the worst issues with X[

Our personal best record with it is to put sanitizer/soap on your hands. It deters us from biting as much since it tastes gross, and could harm us. - Nick


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Reply by R1skyRibz!!

posted

i deal with autism and selective mutism, so i wear the clothes im comfortable in and use sony noise cancelling headphones, also i wear these fishnet gloves that a twiddle with when im bored or stressed. usually i bring a bag full of stuff i like, just to distract myself

hope this helps!


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Reply by space_junk

posted

as soon as i get home, i put all my stuff down but don't sit and keep my shoes on. this helps me do all the shit i need to do before i sit down and crash out


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