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...I think the indie web has a big problem...

Posted by Jeremiah Martin

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Forum: Web, HTML, Tech

https://youtu.be/nHQv4blla7g?si=KBumYtZqzPlIMAqd

...I hate to be that guy, but I think if you swap out "open source alternatives" with "the indie web" in the above video, then not much changes.

Like, obviously the sentiment is nice, and I certainly don't wanna discourage, deter or otherwise dissuade anyone from expressing themselves creatively, but with that said:

Instead of solving the problems presented by the modern internet, what it seems like a lot of people are doing is actually running away from said problems by, ironically enough, creating yet another echo chamber on the internet where people kid themselves into thinking they're developing substantial, viable solutions despite effectively doing little more than circle jerking each other.

Sure, there's more to this than just nostalgia, but I think nostalgia baiting is holding us back in a big way.  There's too many shallow attempts to ape dead stuff without even attempting to adapt it either to the immediate environment or for modern sensibilities, or to improve upon it in any meaningful way.  We may have lost a lot of good stuff along the way, but some of it fell out of relevancy for a reason.

...so how come the indie web doesn't look more like, I dunno, a sort of "fantasy web"?  You know, something akin to fantasy computers?  As in the emulators for hardware that never actually existed?

For example:

These days Sheezyart is probably best known for being the "birthplace" of ytps.  However, it was an alternative to deviantart that not only allowed artists a lot more customization, but also to upload additional forms of media.  Not only did it support video files years before dA rolled out their "film" program, but also audio files, which as far as I'm aware, dA never bothered with.  Arguably, even the community was better.  I for one had a lot more positive interactions on Sheezyart.

However, it shared Myspace's fatal flaw:  being built on unstable spaghetti code.  When they tried to upgrade the systems, it quickly became clear that moving the data over was unfeasible, so Sheezyart was taken behind the barn and "graduated".

I'd love it if the indie web took a more stable stab at Sheezyart with added features like this one sweet tagging system I've seen an image board use that had "implied tags", meaning tags could get added automatically.  For example, if you tagged something with "speed metal", then the tag "metal (genre)" would be added automatically!  For that matter, blacklists and whitelists for tags would also be nice.  I guess what I'm really saying is I want an image board that's more of an "anything" board with rich customization options.

...doesn't that sound like something a lot of people would use?

I get where ya'll are coming from when ya'll basically tell people to "just learn how to code and make everything yourself", but:

  • it's disingenuous to treat the limited customization options of the more mainstream wysiwyg editors as the full extent of what a person can change without touching code
  • it won't help if all people do is flood the web with weak-ass sites that are "all frills" and offer no reason for anything more than a passing glance
  • it really is just asking for too much, I mean sometimes you just shouldn't expect a fish to climb a tree
If ya'll genuinely want the indie web to become anything more than a niche novelty that's pretending to offer an alternative to the corporate web, then we've got to do better than this!


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Reply by Ghosty64

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I can see your criticisms, but I also think the "DIY" nature of SpaceHey makes it more eye-catching for me.

If you want a modern social media that is less exploitative and rage-baitey and is still accessible to use, try BlueSky. You don't have to know anything Fediverse or whatever to use it, and there's plenty of (unironic) boomers that use it.

You don't have to use a single algorithm on it, just follow people, by disabling the "Discover" feed on your account. Boom. No algorithm.

As for the criticism of "making an echochamber" by making another site...what should we do? We can't exactly just tell Twitter and Facebook to be better. They clearly won't listen and need regulated.


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Reply by Jeremiah Martin

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Well, that' kinda my point: what should we do?  Allegedly the "indie web" was the answer, but from what I can tell, we're just pretending it's the answer!  We don't have an answer!  Nobody knows what the hell they're doing!


And this isn't just about social media.  A lot of "personal" pages are also "eye-catching", but then that's about it.  You know what you're left with after the five seconds it takes for the novelty to wear off?  Nothing, because we're more concerned with "making your own website" than we are with making something of substance!  How is that any better than churning out content on youtube?


And BlueSky is just a twitter knockoff!  I've desperately wanted people to stop using twitter!  I didn't understand why people thought twitter of all places was the best option when they migrated from tumblr, and I don't understand what they think they'll lose if they leave!  So even if people finally conceded that BlueSky was doing all the stuff that they allegedly liked about twitter, what makes you think I want twitter to get swapped out with another twitter?  I don't want another facebook, another reddit or another pinterest!  Even Pillowfort is a hard sell!  I only gave spacehey specifically a shot because of it's association with the indie web and because I remember what Myspace use to be like, but guess what?  Despite all the great lengths they've taken to ape their predecessor, the try-hard just isn't Myspace!  And you know what else?  If spacehey is gonna get any better, they'll become even less like Myspace!


As for "regulation", I'm sorry, but I wanna get rid of sociopolitical systems, not make more of them and compound the problem!  Whatever gets implemented will just be used against us like everything else!  Remember how copyright was supposed protect us?  Now "Donut Steel" is a punchline and Nintendo always wins!  If this is really the indie web, then it'd be part of the anti-copyright movement.


...and just what the hell are you implying with the "boomer" crack?


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Reply by Ghosty64

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I don't really know how to respond to your earlier paragraphs of your response, so I'll just respond where I can.

Why does a profile have to be anything of "substance?" But to a lot of people here, they are substantive representations of themselves. I intend to write more blog posts, share my opinions, and likeminded people can read them if they wish. It's a fairly laidback system, I like it.

SpaceHey isn't a popularity contest, that's why it's different from YouTube. It's not fastfastfastfast, it's chill.

Bluesky is more than just a Twitter knockoff. You can curate your actual
experience and avoid an algorithm. The algorithm is the problem with
Twitter. You can avoid it. That solves a problem. It's a modern social
media site that let's you dodge an algorithm. No other modern social
media site does this. If modern social media is going to exist, people should use the most responsible version of it. That is BlueSky. You can have "retro" options like SpaceHey too. You even have a BlueSky account linked on your SpaceHey profile, so I know you've used it before.

I legitimately have no idea what you want in this. You get what you put in. What do you want? What kind of social networking service do you wish to use? I wasn't drawn here solely because of the graphic design, I was drawn here because I think it's also a more responsible social networking service.

I support regulating algorithms because they've been demonstrably harmful to our youth, teenagers, adults, elderly, everyone. The spread of dangerous misinformation, disinformation, etc. has been disastrous to our global society. Companies should not be able to dump waste into our water supply, they are. We ought to crackdown on it.

My "boomer" comment wasn't a joke, it was my point that actual boomers and less-tech inclined people can use Bluesky, and that is a good thing. How old are you? I'm 24.


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Reply by ⚠︎ INS4NEK0 ☆ Y4MER0! ⚠︎

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I would like to know something if it doesn't bother you, and I would be grateful if you answered them with (1) and (2) so I won't get confused :)

1) What problems do you have with Spacehey? I mean, what does Spacehey do for you to not like it at all (I'm guessing you just don't like it at all or it's not what you were expecting). 

2) What would be your ideal social media? I mean, what would you think it is what you would be expecting, if you expect something. Not forced to answer this question if you don't know/aren't sure of what to say. 


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Reply by Jeremiah Martin

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1. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but wasn't talking about spacehey specifically, but rather the indie web in general.  I actually had trouble embedding a related video, but it is linked at the top.  If you want the tl;dr version, at the risk of butchering it, the gist is basically:

  • The top coders actually get paid for their work
  • The runner-ups have crawled so far up their own asses that they've lost touch with the wider user base
  • The best users are the best designers, and neither can code for shit
I get the good intentions, but what we've wound up with is a niche that's largely all hat and no cattle.  Don't get me wrong, I hate how bland and constrictive and manipulative the internet has become, but you don't really have a viable alternative on your hands if it's mostly made by amateurs who can't give much reason to visit other than a e s t h e t i c s.

I mean, why isn't the indie web more like, say, SAGE for example?  SAGE has managed to churn out a laundry list of games that people would rather play in lieu of the slop that comprises most of today's AAA titles.  Where's the indie web's laundry list?

2. As for social media, well, even back when facebook was first popping off, I really didn't get why everybody was going crazy over it because it didn't even do anything new.  I had already been interacting with people through forums and IM for years.  Without any meaningful improvements, facebook seemed pointless.  I really only wound up using it because that's where everyone else wound up.  Even my job used it.

Twitter seemed even more pointless, if that's even possible, because, like, why is it like that?  Did people look at that and think "finally, I'll never have to say tl;dr again"?

I did wind up liking myspace better than facebook just because there was more I could do with it.  I even kinda liked tumblr better than facebook for similar reasons.  So, I suppose I'd want something that had the best features of both, improved upon them, and trimmed the fat.

Does that help?


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Reply by Lakes

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i both agree & disagree
i think it's easy for people to just be drawn to the appearance of the indie web or new old web movement & nothing else
however i've seen people post stuff they won't post on other sites & express themselves in ways they won't otherwise
also people might engage with different indie web sites differently
for example i engage with my neocities & spacehey differently
i think all social media is shallow in some way but people can and still do use it to make posts/videos of substance


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Reply by Kie

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I have so many criticism on this I don't know where to start LOL.
So, first off: what is your experience with the indie web? Because as someone who has been running my website for around a year it has genuinely been so refreshing. I've met so many lovely people through webrings and guestbook messages. And as stupid as that sounds, the solution really is "just learn how to code". It's not hard, and you don't need to do it well (let's not act like most geocities websites weren't shit LOL). Yes, there are a lot of indie (and not) sites taht allow profile customization. But most of them do so through CSS (see Toyhouse, for example). In fact, indie sites tend to be more reliant on having users write CSS because it's the easiest option to implement.

In reference to the video: I have so many gripes with it LOL. As many people pointed out in the comments, open source software doesn't lag behind nearly as much as OP makes it out to be. The main difference, to me, is that open source software tend to require more expertise to be used. EG: using yt-dlp, which is a command line tool, requires more experience than paying for a youtube subscription to download a video. Setting up Linux is harder than just running store-installed windows. Etc.
As many comments pointed out: several open source software, like Blender and OBS, are their industry standard.
I have been using almost exclusively open-source programs for years. From really popular ones like Notepad++ for coding to random commandline tools for niche stuff. I've never looked back to proprietary software since.

I think a lot of people fail to understand that the indieweb and open source software are the natural state of things, and not something we are trying to "force". The web was founded on principles of free access to information and open source technology.


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