Topic: Our Descent into Communism (U.S.A.)



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Reply by Anna Mae

posted

JD - 


In this particular set up (the forum) its hard for me to keep up with & respond to every single point you make. I can't just go back every few lines & reread so a lot gets lost in conversation in this particular way. Thats why half the time I only respond to one or 2 of your points. 

Also try to keep in mind I am still fairly new to politics and therefore some of the political speak & refefences go right over my head. I won't even pretend that isn't the way it is and I'm not still ignorant about a lot of the specifics. 

What I can say is that I think at this point most people are pretty cemented in the beliefs of the side they have chosen, so debating is more or less us throwing our hardheaded opinions against brick walls. This is one of the reasons I don't really debate much about stuff anymore. 

I can also say that, as I mentioned before, I give the Right shit too because I *don't* agree with all of their positions, beliefs, and mindsets. 

Ex. I am and always have been 100% for gay rights. My oldest daughter was a lesbian (she passed 7 months ago) and my 2nd oldest daughter is a questioning bisexual. I have raised my children to not just be "tolerant" but supportive and loving when it comes to the LGBTQ+ community. So much so that my 5yr old at the time gay marriage was finally legalized she ran around the house proclaiming she would marry her best friend and screaming "LOVE WINS!" We even went to the park with our sidewalk chalk and covered every inch of cement with the phrase, rainbows, symbols, etc. We made a whole ass day of it. 

Many Christians & therefore Conservatives have a problem with gay marriage and think being gay is a sin. Thats one of many reasons I've never been able to bring myself to even try to believe in their God and religion and its a big divide between me and many right wingers. 

This is just one example and I'm not trying to paint myself in a good light for brownie points, I'm just making a point - That just because I lean Right doesn't mean I agree with everything they do and believe. I've gone toe to toe with conservatives for years even when I tried to stay away from politics, bc for me its not political, its about human decency. Thats how I look at many issues. 

As for the specifics you shared - I done forgot them, hence the mention that with this set up its hard for me to keep track. I do know there are probably at least a handful of things I will have to take the time to educate myself on before I can respond to your points. 

I do know though that the idea that left wingers "rightfully" fear conservatives is ridiculous. The fear mongering thats been happening for years with this is just asinine. I'll look into the specifics you brought up but this idea that conservatives are and have been attacking leftist's safety is just silly as fuck. Its a narrative that's been pushed to gain desired results from the "top dogs". 

I do want to clarify (not that it'll do me any good) that when I compare the conservative witch hunt (which is very much real, anyone who isn't blinded by propaganda & manipulations can see it clear as day) to Nazi Germany, I'm talking the early stuff. The demonization, the propaganda, ect. And saying we need to be careful about demonizing a group of people to this extent because POLITICS. It never ends well. Just because some people want to take offense at anything they possibly can doesn't mean there aren't valid comparisons & points to be made. Obviously its slightly hyperbolic and if y'all would stop obsessing over race & racisim for 2 goddamn seconds maybe you would actually hear our points, observe for yourself, and understand what we're saying and going through. 

I suspect though that the overall mindset is that even if we are, y'all don't care, because, just like me, y'all grew up being told conservative is a bad word and/or learned it in your older teens/young adulthood. We aren't all a bunch of old, white, gun toting, Christian, Nazi/WhiteSupremacist/Racist, Homophobic/Transphobic/Xenophobic,
Bigots. But y'all really can't see that because it doesn't fit the mainstream narrative. 

I won't even TRY to debate or explain why all of that is just insanely twisted and wrong because I know damn well that one will go nowhere. The brainwashing is too damn deep. 

Anyway I forgot the rest by now so I'll have to leave if off there for now. The last thing I want to say though is this - What is it you hope to accomplish by debating me on all of these many, many points? I doubt you're going to sway me, and I know damn well I'm not going to sway you. We are both firm in our stance. I'm not actually trying to be a dick with that question, I'm genuinely curious. Because I personally see no point. 


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Reply by Anna Mae

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JD -


On the freedoms question, its not just about freedoms, but read my first couple of posts in this forum and you'll see what my point is. Why I believe communism is slowly being pushed on America and how. 

Also, yes, our freedom of speech is being infringed upon. You can argue that social media sites & google are private companies but you can't deny what a HUGE impact they have on society. Yes, we can go elsewhere to speak more freely, but OUR "safe spaces" are being systematically destroyed. We are being backed into a corner and silenced. The flow of information is OPENLY being controlled. The mainstream media is partisan as fuck and social media & google are actively manipulating what gets seen by the majority. And yes, thats a big fucking deal. Freedom of speech applies to more than just the Left, but you wouldn't know it by how these big companies are behaving. It may not legally be an infringement (yet) but it sure as fuck is a huge social attack on anyone who doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative. And you say "You have the freedom of speech but there are social consequences" - I mean, no shit, but I'm not talking about hate speech or actual racist dickheads. That shit makes sense. I'm talking about near total censorship & the social manipulations turning us against each other, targetting conservatives so the big guys can distract, divide, and gain ground with their political agendas. Its disgusting and I absolutely have a problem with it. 

As for other rights, I'd have to make a whole ass list, but one example is the repeated attempts to infringe upon our 2nd Ammendment Rights. And yeah we sound crazy with the whole "they're gonna take our guns" bit but 1) When you actually look at it, yes the government is (and has been for a while) trying to gain more control despite our rights and 2) There's a reason our Founding Fathers told us to guard our rights "jealously". Those in power will ALWAYS seek total control of the populace and given the "rhetoric" from the Left and whats actually in those proposed bills (yes I actually read through the actual bills) I don't think we're as paranoid as we're made out to be. Another point to think about with that and any other area the government tries to gain more power/control - Every time you compromise with them and give just a little, they NEVER give it back. They only hunger for MORE. This is just the way of things. 

There is so so so much more I could say about all of it but its a LOT and honestly like I said in my last post, I don't see the point in debating you or the Left in general because we, on both sides, are generally cemented in the beliefs of the sides we have chosen. 


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Reply by Nein MC

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I hate sounding like a loony shouting about communism
Yeah, you sound like you really hate showing off your intellectual laziness. Being not that bright isn't horrible, it's luck of the draw, but being sloppy and lazy and shallow absolutely is.


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Reply by JD_Jakie

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Anna Mae- First of all, my condolences for your loss. I have chosen to keep discussing with you, because ultimately, we all have to live in this society together and people have to move beyond their bubbles that have been set by social media algorithms. I'm an anarchist (leftist libertarian/communalist) who long ago realized the power that neo-liberal capitalism has over our society and who has accepted that most people are not going to adopt my point of view. However, if I want to effect any change, I have to be willing to talk to people who may think differently than me, as I am sincerely interested in the truth and fairness.


If you think freedom of speech is being infringed upon by social media companies and that we are being manipulated, you are actually touching on something that radical leftists have been saying for years. Almost all leftists groups that I follow on facebook have dealt with multiple post-blocks for seemingly mundane offenses, while we have observed many alt-right groups and individuals openly saying racist and homophobic slurs without consequence. This was happening years before the recent Twitter and FB bans.

Remember that under capitalism, corporations are only beholden to public opinion and more importantly to their stockholders. Donald Trump and other right wing people who have recently been swept up in Twitter/ Facebook bans had been given carte blanche for years to spread conspiracy theories and make racist statements on the platforms. That was all well and good as it generated clicks and advertizing revenue while feeding their data collection algorithm. Investors happy, advertizers happy, all good. 

It wasn't until the Capitol breach that Twitter/FB started to think "hmm, maybe we shouldn't give these people a platform because the investors are scared now and we're under scrutiny." Consider again the power that our capitalist society has given to corporations to act as they see fit. It seems like you place great importance on this issue and what you seem to be arguing against is the profit motive that fuels these platform services. In essence, it appears that you are actually calling for more regulation of the methods that these companies employ, which may be in contradiction to some of your previously expressed viewpoints that government should keep its hands out of the private sector. 

Conversely, a more radical option which anarchists and communists might call for would be the seizure of the means of production, that the workers and users of Facebook/Twitter rise up and take it over, turning them into free public utilities. Could that also be done with healthcare, education, and our general infrastructure?


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Reply by Anna Mae

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JD - Just wanted to let you know I didn't forget about you, I've just been hella busy & mentally tired. I'll get back to you after some solid rest when my brain is working again. 


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Reply by Forrest

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OP's brain is 100% wrinkle-free.


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Reply by Anna Mae

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Your crusty balls aren't.  


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Reply by Forrest

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I don't have balls. Joke's on you.


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Reply by Austin

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This is not true at all. The United States is a hyper-capitalist nation built on the exploitation of working people. From the genocide of the natives to the enslavement of Africans, the USA has a long history of colonialism and subjugation of the lower classes. 


Communism does not equate to "government control" but rather worker control. If you ACTUALLY read communist literature you would find out within the first ten pages that communism is a political ideology that seeks to abolish all forms of unjust hierarchy. Communists believe in a society that lacks a central, authoritative state. We also believe in economic democracy, that is, the collective and democratic control of industry by WORKERS, not private individuals that subjugate workers. 

If you're reading this and want to learn more about left-wing political ideologies but do not want to be bogged down by dense 19th century texts I suggest this YouTuber. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhl3ZMoZhF0&t=13s

His specific left-wing ideology is anarchist-communism, also known as libertarian socialism or OG libertarianism (before it was co-opted by the right-wing in the 1970s) It is also my particular flavor of leftism. Communists come in all different shapes and sizes, all with their own theory and practice. 

The Gravel Institute is also an amazing organization of socialists that are striving to elect diverse, leftists candidates across the nation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mI_RMQEulw&t=5s

Do not buy into right-wing fear mongering about communism. These are the same old, tired tropes that have been repeated for centuries. Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains. 


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Reply by Natty

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A lot of good discourse on this thread!


You're absolutely right though... unless the world wakes up, communism/socialism is bound to be implemented. You needn't look far with open eyes to see this truth. 

People who support it do not know it. If they did, they wouldn't support it. 


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Reply by Desi

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I agree.. Its frustrating that ppl on the left cant see it


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Reply by Dillon

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I am tired of the red scare. Maybe people have forgotten about that.
The Soviet Union had plenty of issues and the USSR had problems with government over reach, but, to say that the USSR was a total disaster is a historical and ignores the reality of history. Further more, you make the (false) assumption that because communism has failed in the Soviet union and other former peasant societies that some how the same can be applied to the united states with its (once) powerful industry and factories that sit unused and ignored. You some how think that if a communist mode of production took hold that it would cripple the most powerful economy on earth. Sorry to tell you but that does not make sense.

Furthermore, you completely, unsurprisingly, misunderstand what communism even is to begin with.


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Reply by Mys

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There is no way you can be so positively sure that communism is evil because a true communist state has never once existed on this earth. Maybe do some actual research on what communism is.


(Better yet, do some research on what these people mean by "Nazi talking points." I believe you'll find some very familiar sounding points.)

Please, for your own sake, learn to be more self aware.

Also, because I know you're way too far up your own ass to actually do any amount of research, I'll help you out a bit. You'll find that there is no one true definition of communism, a result of it not yet actually existing in history thus far. Marx only outlines what he thinks the steps to get to communism are, and other historians that have hypothesized rarely agree with each other. Speak to any true communist today and you'll find that most of them rarely claim any of the states that have ever called themselves communists. 


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Reply by geekout

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I think there is a bit of "communist" threat from National Bolshevism, NazBol, coming out of Russia. I just know a little about it, but it's basically Fascism, and doesn't hide that fact. They're self-described Fascists.

Their main theorist is Alexander Dugin. I haven't read much Dugin, but, sheesh - the stuff sounds pretty vile. It's anti-Semitic, for one.

So, we have this weird situation where two superpowers, in different ways, back Fascists.

Nazbol is fascism with an old USSR flavor. Every time I see a story from RT, I start to wonder if it's Duginist.

The reasons why I worry about Nazbol in the US is that it could have some appeal to people:
  • It's racist, and kind of pro-white.
  • It's got a lot of anti-neolib popular edge to it, and is kind of demsoc.
  • It's anti-US, anti-NATO.
  • It's anti-Semitic, and pro-Christian.
So, there you go. I could see some "leftists" being into it. It could be presented as a kind of class-first anti-imperialist position.

Also, it naturally has a lot of appeal to right wingers because:
  • It's racist, and kind of pro-white.
  • It's anti-neoliberal.
  • It's anti-NATO, probably anti-UN.
  • It's anti-Semitic, pro-Christian.
  • It's anti-LGBTQ, and traditionally patriarichial.
I've seen a bit of support for Russia in right-wing comment threads for a decade, so... I don't even need to make a logical argument for it, because there's concrete evidence.

I don't expect people of color to fall for Nazbol - it's hard to like something that hates you. Same for LGBT people, because it sucks being targeted for murder.

I don't think most white women will either, but some will. I just think white guys who are on the left, and getting tired of being singled out for being SWM, could turn to Nazbol. These would be SocDems against SJWs.

Opinions?


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Reply by JD_Jakie

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Geekout- yes, that is definitely a threat and thank you for bringing it up. In Western Europe, there also exists an Autonomist National Socialist movement which borrows a lot of its tactics and aesthetics from leftists activists, but is essentially the same old Nazism/fascism in a slightly different package adjusted for nostalgia and mass-appeal. 


However, it's their racism and anti-semitism which distinguishes their brand of "socialism" from communists and anarchists who strive to hold themselves to an anti-racist platform based on international solidarity of the working class. These would be NazBol fascists still always put private property, corporations, and the state above all else and rely on the support and cooperation of the wealthy elite to gain power, while using Jews, People of Color, Queers and all of us "poor moochers" as scapegoats when capitalist systems fail, because they are never willing to confront the problem of capital directly. I like to say that (outright) fascism is neo-liberal capitalism's nuclear option in times of intense crisis.

I do fear that there are some disoriented, embittered, and privileged leftists and non-political people out there who could easily fall into this trap of National Bolshevism or Anarcho-Nationalism if they perceive these movements as fighting for their interests, or those who want to accelerate the revolution by any means necessary, or the nihilists among them who believe that anarchism just means chaos and destruction. 

Anti-racism/anti-semitism/sexism/homofobia/transfobia/ableism/colonialism/classism activism are very important things to keep as a foundation in all leftwing activism, whether you are anarchist, communist, or DemSoc. etc. These are the things that you are fighting against when you fight fascism, for me at least; but I'm afraid that Cancel/SJW Culture as it stands today, while initially well-intentioned, is fundamentally divorced from issues of class and real solidarity, and only serves to drive the average non-political person away from awareness of the very real problems at hand, while also alienating even dedicated activists of all backgrounds. There has to be a middle ground, not between left and right, but between this sort of new age absolutist replacement for Original Sin and the Scarlet Letter, and post-modernist ennui.


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Reply by kittencat

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Im very late but..

both sides, no need for the insults and hatred. It wont get anyone anywhere here.
Yes it can be frustrating, but what will any of you achieve throwing insults back and forth? 


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Reply by Shinobi Vega

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The problem, Anna Mae, is that you are debating with the Left.  And facts don't matter to the Left.  You can bring up all the evidence of the horrors of the atrocities Communism has unleashed upon the world throughout hisotry and they'll just be like, "Yeah well, Communism doesn't really exist so, that wasn't real Communism.  Yeahhh, bitch, communism is fucking awesome XD "  These people are vicious, they are cruel, and they don't give a fuck except to steal, to kill, and to destroy.


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Reply by #Greg

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LOL. 


What a clown.

Nobody serious on the left is advocating for communism.  


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Reply by ️‍AngelDoggo️‍

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Yeah I kinda understand where you are coming from, me personally this feels like the Obama era all over again tbh.


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Reply by ️‍AngelDoggo️‍

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Yeah I kinda understand where you are coming from, me personally this feels like the Obama era all over again tbh.


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Reply by Natty

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So happy to see this forum still.


It is so true. Our brothers and sisters all over the world are facing such oppression. For some of us, we are familiar with this. For others, this is our first time experiencing this. 

Whoever can't see what is happening is afraid of facing the truth. They're afraid of being wrong. They're afraid of their world being shattered by facing the truth.

It is easier to follow the narrative, to believe the lies many of us have been taught, formally educated in, for our entire lives. 

God bless. 


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Reply by Abri Muccino

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"soy boy" LMAO that fucking killed me this has to be ironic 


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Reply by Wumpi

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OP should take the fall down the stairs challenge!


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Reply by Smxth

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Tell me you don't understand politics.... oh wait.    You just did. 


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Reply by CGayKitty

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SOCIALISM is when the GOVERNMENT does STUFF


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Reply by Vigilante Stylez

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No matter what they call it... totalitarianism sucks.  


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Reply by YukikoBestGirl

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aesome thread so true!!

That damn FREAKING COMMIE SLEEPY JOE ENACTING HIS COMMIE POLICIES OF CONTINUED NEOLIBERALISM 


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Reply by wickedbaby

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awesome thread


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Reply by Melanie

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Completely agree with you on that!


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Reply by Alice

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To communists here acting like an ass: Communists have a duty to submit themselves to the working class, not lord their theoretical prowess over others as I see in this thread. You know very well the material conditions that produces people who don't know what communism is, hate that spectre, and have been told to blame all the world's ills on some scapegoat group instead of the system. You have a duty to understand dialectical materialism and use it to reach others, not browbeat them or insult them.

The masses hold the domain of praxis which is the principle aspect in the theory-praxis contradiction. You ought to know this as a good communist. Praxis is the necessary component to produce movement toward a better tomorrow. It is the duty of a communist to deliver theory to the rest of the people in a way that "grips" them.
Marx said: "Theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses." (A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right, 1843)
No part of insulting a person is gripping beyond the anger and fear you contribute in them. If you see a person's clear emotional turmoil and proceed to attempt factual refutation—as I have seen here—then you have played further into the same system of social rejection that led a person here to start. I have a further admonishment in this blog post here and I suggest any fellow communist who contributed to this borderline-hazing get correct and read it:


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Reply by Benjamin

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You have no idea what communism is lmao. 

BTW. if you feel like the government is "controling you" right now and know the government to be capitalist, maybe perhaps its capitalism that is limiting your freedom...

I mean seriously the US imprisons the most people out of any country in the world. 


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Reply by Eric T (Bearorist83)

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Without looking at a dictionary, can any of you Tr*mp H*mpers define communism?? I know it’s a big scary word being spoon fed to you 24/7 by the propaganda machines on the right but I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of you don’t know what it means. 


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Reply by Danielle

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the two recent posters should read the entire thread before tossing in their two cents. id say theres already a couple dollars worth in here.


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Reply by Dddylx5zro5

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Why should I ever trust a right winger/ republican/ conservative ever again after witnessing the Iraq War?


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Reply by Alice

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@Dddylx5zro5
Because right-wing workers didn't cause the Iraq war. A series of complicated political power struggles from the pressure of US Imperialism caused the Iraq war. The American public was just roped into blaming themselves by extremely manipulative information dissemination tactics and organized efforts by both government and media to sway public opinion. Those to blame are those in power. If it wasn't Iraq, another equally horrible war was always going to happen because of the material conditions of the US at the time and its consumption outpacing its production. That requires it to expand. I recommend this reading for clarity on similar situations: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism — VI Lenin.


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Reply by Ghost

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Communism is actually a really good idea. You clearly have barely done research into communism


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Reply by D1xieN0rmus69

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

It's moral to know the material you dismiss as wrong instead of admitting you don't know much and still smugly acting correct.


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Reply by gothking454

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You must understand, the leading Bolsheviks who took over Russia were
not Russians. They hated Russians. They hated Christians. Driven by
ethnic hatred they tortured and slaughtered millions of Russians without
a shred of human remorse. It cannot be overstated. Bolshevism committed
the greatest human slaughter of all time. The fact that most of the
world is ignorant and uncaring about this enormous crime is proof that
the global media is in the hands of the perpetrators.


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Reply by emolovestory

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The u.s is literally nowhere near communism lol


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Reply by johnny

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Commies in this thread rabidly defending their failure of an ideology, and right-wingers unable to explain why government is bad without resorting to "muh communism." Seems like this thread is every other online political discussion.


The USA will never descend into communism, but the threat of government overreach is very real and very valid.


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Reply by Austin_KornClown7

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I find it funny how many people don't actually know what they are talking about.


America has no left wing ( outside front few people and outlires) the overwhelming majority is center and right of center. We have the far right ( THE RIGHT WING) and the middle right ( QUOTE OF QUOTE LEFT WING) 
Both being right of center and I'm the top half of political compass.




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Reply by Austin_KornClown7

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ4nvCVAGw0


Anyone that thinks they know how the US political system works should check this out.. 
if anyone cares to talk about let me know. 


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Reply by Red Field

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Welp I'm not white, and definitely not cis, all I have to say is this is sad.

I guess ya'll should have taken libertarians a bit more seriously and stopped voting every election, we've been pointing out that democracy was a mistake, that pairing it with a minarchist government would inevitably cause the government to grow.

The Republicans are clowns, like seriously how do most right wingers not know this? They're controlled opposition. They've let the state grow at every turn in the name of religion, security and social order.

I guess Anarcho-Capitalists are the last true Americans left that actually value freedom above all else. Elon Musk kinda realized this, and touted what we've been saying for decades: the government has a monopoly on violence.

There is some hope, if crypto takes off though. Start avoiding taxes as early as possible, make more crypto transactions and yeah get off left wing woke media like Twitter, Facebook and Reddit that embrace censorship. Seriously.


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Reply by Austin_KornClown7

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Slamdangles

provide data not just claims, 

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."


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Reply by Milan Vosáhlo

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As an European, I'm sorry to see what's happening in the US, not really because of sympathy, more because of China. There is no freedom of speech and human rights are severely abused in China, so we need the free market to defeat it, just like in the cold war. The US turning to the left means a downward spiral that will only make China stronger.


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Reply by gothking454

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biological leninism makes the most sense in describing the United States today:


Humans care deeply about status. Status is what drives human behavior. Everybody works to achieve more status, and to avoid losing status. Socialism of course sells egalitarianism. It tells people with low status that they can get some more. The Industrial Revolution had forced millions of peasants into the cities, and they all felt they had lost status in the process. Economists will tell you that the standard of living of industrial workers (according to some measures) had actually improved. And that may be so, but the workers didn't think so, and they were pissed.

So these socialists come by and tell them they have this plan to make
them gain status, big time. That was huge. Yes, sure, Christianity had
also started promising the meek that they were morally higher than rich
people; they'd all go to heaven unlike those perfid rich guys. But that
didn't translate into actual, real-world status. Socialism was promising
actual goods. And so it became huge. It's still huge. It's pretty much
catnip for humans. It's instant check-mate.

In Communist countries pedigree was very important. You couldn't get far
in the party if you had any little kulak, noble or landowner ancestry.
Only peasants and workers were trusted. Why? Because only peasants and
workers could be trusted to be loyal. Rich people, or people with the
inborn traits which lead to being rich, will always have status in any
natural society. They will always do alright. That's why they
can't be trusted; the stakes are never high for them. If anything they'd
rather have more freedom to realize their talents. People of peasant
stock though, they came from the dregs of society. They know very well
that all they have was given to them by the party. And so they will be
loyal to the death, because they know it, if the Communist regime falls,
their status will fall as fast as a hammer in a well.

You can't run a tight, cohesive ruling class with white men. They don't
need to be loyal. They'll do ok anyway. A much easier way to run an
obedient, loyal party is to recruit everyone else. Women. Blacks. Gays.
Muslims. Transexuals. Pedophiles. Those people may be very high
performers individually, but in a natural society ruled by its core of
high performers, i.e. a white patriarchy, they wouldn't have very high
status. So if you promise them high status for being loyal to you; you
bet they're gonna join your team. They have much to gain, little to
lose. The Coalition of the Fringes, Sailer calls it. It's worse than
that really. It's the coalition of everyone who would lose status the
better society were run. It's the coalition of the bad. Literal
Kakistocracy.

Yes, it's all madness, but it works. It really works like a charm. The
richest parts of America, California and New York, are now a one-party
state. America has legislation which forces every private enterprise of
size to have a proportion of women, of black people and sexual deviants;
who of course know they don't belong there, and thus are extremely
faithful political commissars. More faithful than the actual official
political commissars that Communist China has also in their private
companies.


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Reply by Lisa Mordri

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I am of a strong opinion that people need to stand up for what they believe in more often . Rulers are servers 


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Reply by Buddy willhoite (indiana)

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Fuck antifa 👌


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Reply by harold staam

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yeah i think people in my country dont realize how far to the right america is. i mean we are so far to the right that a modern democrat would be considered a conservative in europe. and like living in a capitalist system is so free. how can you be free when literally everything costs money? there used to be a time in human history when you could actually live on very little money. under capitalism every thing costs money and it keeps getting more and more expensive. but they always suppress the wages so the majority of us just keep sinking deeper into poverty. i mean think about it . we live in the richest country on earth and we still have huge chunks of america that are basically the third world. 


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Reply by gothking454

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The United States exists under a system of usury. That is why everything is so expensive.


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