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Mspec lesbian discourse messes me up as a nonbinary lesbian

Like on one hand, I do fit within the "non men loving non men" definition of lesbian... except it still backfires on me as a non woman too. This man/non man binary is highly unrealistic when it comes to nonbinary people. There are still multigender people under the umbrella to consider who might experience male alignment to varying degrees... like as a genderfluid person, I'm sometimes a lesboy when I'm experiencing my boygirl, girlboy, or demiboy days. And even tho I still don't consider myself a man in those moments, the complexity of my gender that makes me feel completely disconnected from womanhood has made other queer people perceive me as a threat-- EVEN IF THEY'RE TRANS THEMSELVES.

I also don't really talk about this with anyone since it's so controversial, but I also lowkey identify as a polysexual lesbian since it makes more sense than NMLNM? Like when I see that definition of primarily loving women with the inclusion of many other genders but not all, idk... it just feels a lot more realistic to just accept lesbian as a bigger spectrum than that. I like other nonbinary people too, and lately I've been processing that attraction might be to the degree that it can include those who also have fuzzy relationships with male alignment too. Like I've seen nonbinary lesbians joking about "lesbian yaoi" before and I just... whole heartedly feel that? I met my first girlfriend through MySpace back in our yaoi rp days, and if it wasn't for yaoi, I would have never been able to come to terms with my attraction to girls at all. 

I feel like because of this along with other things to do with my complex upbringing as a genderqueer person, I sort of feel like a gaybian to a certain extent. Like not exactly as a gay man per say, but in a much more nuanced genderfuck kind of way. I have a trans fem FWB I sent this Utena meme to:


She was like "same" and then elaborated that she still feels like a gay boy even tho she's also a trans girl too. It's little gender fuckery things like this that just makes it feel all the more gayer. In Stone Butch Blues, Leslie Feinberg explores this concept hirself through butch/butch relationships and how controversial it was even within lesbian bar culture. Many lesbians considered it to be essentially replicating gay male relationships, which was why Jess was vehemently against discovering her butch friends dating eachother. She internalized heteronormative butch/femme assimilation so much, it even led to the same homophobic micro aggressions cishet people ask: "Who's the femme in the relationship?" The answer was neither, because they're both butch lesbians who love eachother.

I have no idea how active this group even is, but I just needed some kind of safe space to openly talk about this. Lesbian separatism is truly poisonous as it fucks over every single one of us, no matter how much we dabble in those respectability politics as nonbinary lesbians ourselves.



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Reply by Dinic 💫

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that's totally the thing though, like the anti-multispec lesbian thing came from the same sources as being against nonbinary lesbians. it's all people who want "lesbian purity".

I saw a post recently that said something like "we would have less queer discourse if people treated it like a union instead of like a country club", and that's really how it feels. The people who pushed for this just want it to be their community away from men, and when a butch, bi, nonbinary, trans, or any other lesbian comes around that challenges that, they target them.


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Reply by weedie weed

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Oh thank God someone responded to this dmmxxgjxj I'm so grateful since it looked like this group was completely dead after a year of inactivity ; __ ;

I feel that way too. I honestly have no idea wtf is up with modern day lesbian discourse suddenly wanting to be inclusive of nonbinary people. Like nonbinary lesbians always existing, that's really the only marginalized group they care for alongside trans women... (altho not always if they're bio essentialists) that were all ironically erased BECAUSE OF LESBIAN SEPARATISM. What's so insidious about this is that whenever they see exorsexism in lesbian spaces, they will always die on this hill telling nonbinary exclusionists that excluding nonbinary people from lesbian spaces is ahistorical... until they're confronted with the other marginalized communities that were also exiled from the lesbian community.

Not only that, but their inclusion of nonbinary people in lesbian spaces is purely conditional. The moment we start talking about multigender people, they immediately shut down. It's as if multigender people are only valid so as long as we never speak on our male alignment EVER. A lot of multigender people bring up that its like a genderfluid person trying to go to a lesbian bar and they try to ID them based on what gender they're feeling in thar present moment. "Oh you're a man today? Come back whenever that changes." It really is just a fucking country club gdjdnhxjxkhx especially when they're trying to purify what it means to be a trans masculine lesbian when that will forever involve a lot of gender bending nuances.

I legitimately can't even wrap my brain around how so many people advocate for lesbianism being exclusionary while also pushing for Stone Butch Blues....which actually tackles lesbian gatekeeping. Like, that actually happens in the story. Plus Leslie Feinberg has openly supported butches being bi, I remember seeing that in an interview on YouTube. (Which I feel compelled to find when I have enough free time so I can post the source on here)


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